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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 3023934" data-attributes="member: 22779">This pretty much answers JRRNeiklot as well.  If the DM has invisible lava with no heat radiating from it and no smoke, well, I'd say that was pretty unfair.  You know that the lava is there.  A lever on the floor is not lava.For me, it's the DC.  Again, if the monk can't make his save on a 19, that probably means that any other character will die as well.  95% is close enough to 100 to say that the save isn't really a save in any case.It's not that save or die traps have no place.  Of course they do.  I can tell you that LOTS of people complained about the roller trap in TOH.  OTOH, if you were playing TOH, you pretty much knew ahead of time that you were going to die, it was more just playing to see how you died.Heck, I have even used no save situations.  In the first region of the World's Largest Dungeon, there are unstable portals that are summoning fiendish creatures.  A were-rat sorcerer is guarding the portals.  In the combat, I suggested the fourth level rogue to jump into the portal (the suggestion was worded that it was a way home) - he failed his will save and managed to evade no less than three AOO's from party members trying to grapple him before launching himself into the portal and smearing himself across 11 dimensions.  Very, very dead.Fair?  I think so.  He died because of a string of bad luck, which happens.  He was never placed in a situation where he had no chance of survival if he took a particular act.That's my problem with this setup.  The party can do anything, except pull the lever.  Any other action and they live, pull the lever and die.  I hate "gotcha" stuff.  It's no fun.</blockquote>

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