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Message: <blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 3026897" data-attributes="member: 22424">I was speaking from an adventure-design rather than in-character standpoint. My contention is that in a level-appropriate dungeon then it should be. Of course, if the PCs are not in a level-appropriate dungeon then all bets are off.It's possible, but extremely unlikely. If the dungeon environment is that deadly to those who inhabit it (assuming no special immunities come into play), then it is almost certain that those inhabitants would have scrawled the words "deadly trap, do not pull lever" in very big letters in the room with the lever after the first member of their troupe got zapped. Or, since orcs are not necessarily known for their literacy, daubed a great big skull symbol on the wall. Or they would have walled up the room. Or something. Either way, there would be warnings of some sort. And they would do this, so that their children/visiting chief/someone else they care about doesn't accidentally trigger the trap.Low CR creatures do not live long in dungeons with high CR traps (as a general rule), since those same traps would kill them off. And there's nothing metagame about that.The characters would, however, know whether they're in over their heads. If every challenge to this point has been of a certain lethality, it's highly unlikely that this one is suddenly going to be significantly worse.And, perhaps surprisingly, they would have noticed had the rogue failed to spot traps earlier in the dungeon, so would know how much trust to put in his skills.That's circular reasoning. The outcome can't be considered fair because the PCs did something wrong when the only evidence that the PCs did something wrong was that that outcome was bad.Last month, I went to France on holiday. I took my car. Before I went, I took the car to my mechanic and had him give it a full service, and check it thoroughly for problems. He did so, found a few things, fixed those things, and gave it a clean bill of health.Shortly after my arrival in France I had problems with the car, and had to have the brake pads replaced.Now, tell me, did I do the RIGHT THING by having the car checked, and then having the tyre replaced? Or should I have doubted the mechanic who has given me flawless service for years when he gave the car a clean bill of health? Wouldn't that be excessively paranoid?My point being that sometimes you do the RIGHT THING, and it still doesn't work out. That doesn't mean you did something wrong... it means you were unlucky.Really? What sort of an idiot BBEG places a trap of extreme lethality on a lever a room with a secret door, and no other apparent ways of opening the door. Clearly, that just screams trap.Surely, any smart BBEG would place the trap on the secret door such that the only way to disarm the trap is to place your hands on the door and utter the password. Which would, of course, be the BBEG's favourite colour, or first pet's name, or the punchline to some joke he liked a lot (or, since the use of ciphers isn't exactly new, might as well be the password "VZBUX")? And, while we're at it, dispense with the lever entirely, and have the same password unlock the door. Or, better still, don't bother with a secret door at all, and just use magic to walk through the wall.When I drive to work, I don't expect to be involved in a crash. And yet I make sure to use my seatbelt every time. Just because the odds of something are very small doesn't mean that you don't do it, or go to ridiculous lengths to avoid the danger.Substituting a proxy isn't that easy, you know. Not only are the number of summoning spells available tightly constrained, but you also need the ability to communicate with the summoned creatures to have them pull the lever. This may or may not be a further bar to the casual use of such a spell.Using a prisoner is an option, provided a prisoner is available, and assuming sufficient moral flexibility in the party. It's certainly not a Good action to force a prisoner to pull a lever if the party sincerely believes there may be an insta-kill death trap on it.Fine. Since the trap presumably didn't spring into existence when the party found the McGuffin, how do you deal with the case where you find it before they find said McGuffin? Then there is a (potential) need to pull the lever, they haven't completed their mission, and so forth. If the trap is fair after the McGuffin is found, it must be safe before. Is it really?Had the rogue checked the entry door, he would have found it trapped also (and this applies whether the checking is done before entry or after). However, if the rogue only checks the lever and the secret door, it's entirely reasonable to not mention the danger on the other door as well. The OP specifically did not mention checking the first door, so neither did I, so the rogue didn't find it.They don't know that it was safe when they entered. Had they checked it for traps before entering, they'd have found the trap. But, in the example given, they did not.It's harder, but then it's specifically designed to screw players who can't read the DM's mind, and is further specifically designed to be more fair than the OP trap, since it can be detected. The OP trap relies on the party assuming that the group's dedicated trapfinder got it wrong, and that the lever is trapped despite his best efforts at finding such a trap. My trap lets them know explicitly that there is a trap, and that it is beyond their skill to disarm (which I thought was extremely generous - a sadistic DM would let the rogue try, and get himself zapped when he failed). And it makes as much if not more sense than the OP trap - anyone who should be in the room would know how to disarm the trap; anyone who doesn't know the 'trick' deserves to be zapped whether they leave by the secret or the obvious exit (or, indeed, by use of passwall, or any other means).Ideally, a trap should have both a means to avoid the save by good play, and the ability to detect and disarm and/or bypass the trap through good (if challenging) rolls, and appropriately tough but not instantly lethal consequences if this fails (assuming a monk in full health when he triggers the trap, he should perhaps die on a failed save, suffer significant but not terminal damage on a successful save, with a save DC such that he can make the save on, say, a natural 15+... bearing in mind that the Monk likely has the best saves in the group).The above paragraph assumes a trap at the upper end of 'acceptable' for a normal challenge. I have no problem in removing some of the options as the trap gets more deadly. However, as the trap gets more deadly, it needs to do so in the context of the dungeon as a whole. If the trap becomes so deadly that it cannot be detected, and cannot be survived if triggered then only good play can protect the characters. That's okay, but I expect that such a trap will only appear in a dungeon that is beyond the ability of the PCs to survive for long, and then I absolutely demand that the players be aware of how tough the dungeon is, either before they enter, or more likely in the course of their explorations. If every challenge in the dungeon to date has been level-appropriate, and now the party are faced with this trap, then it's unfair.</blockquote>

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