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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 3031388" data-attributes="member: 22779">But, the DM is forcing the players to conform to a certain norm, the second they enter a &quot;dungeon&quot;.&nbsp; Of course, that brings up the idea of what constitutes a dungeon as well.&nbsp; If said lever was inside a castle, should that matter?&nbsp; If it's inside a blacksmith's home, we should act differently?&nbsp; In a bar?&nbsp; Or is the presence of a lever indication that the players are now in a dungeon environment?Change the situation slightly.&nbsp; Say the thief found a trap.&nbsp; The thief then goes to disarm the trap.&nbsp; Continuing this, the thief needs a 20 on his skill check to disarm the trap and he cannot make his saving throw.&nbsp; So, on a roll of 15 or less, the thief dies.&nbsp; Now the party has done everything by the book.&nbsp; They've done everything right and the thief dies 75% of the time (a fail of 5 or more sets off the trap according to the skill).&nbsp; Is the trap fair or is it now far too high for what a party should be facing in a dungeon?My problem isn't save or die traps.&nbsp; They happen.&nbsp; Heck, even a simple fireball trap could kill the rogue if he fails his save.&nbsp; But, a trap that kills the PC 100% of the time or even 75% of the time when interacted with is not fair.&nbsp; The save DC is simply too high.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 3031388, member: 22779"] But, the DM is forcing the players to conform to a certain norm, the second they enter a "dungeon". Of course, that brings up the idea of what constitutes a dungeon as well. If said lever was inside a castle, should that matter? If it's inside a blacksmith's home, we should act differently? In a bar? Or is the presence of a lever indication that the players are now in a dungeon environment? Change the situation slightly. Say the thief found a trap. The thief then goes to disarm the trap. Continuing this, the thief needs a 20 on his skill check to disarm the trap and he cannot make his saving throw. So, on a roll of 15 or less, the thief dies. Now the party has done everything by the book. They've done everything right and the thief dies 75% of the time (a fail of 5 or more sets off the trap according to the skill). Is the trap fair or is it now far too high for what a party should be facing in a dungeon? My problem isn't save or die traps. They happen. Heck, even a simple fireball trap could kill the rogue if he fails his save. But, a trap that kills the PC 100% of the time or even 75% of the time when interacted with is not fair. The save DC is simply too high. [/QUOTE]

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