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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PapersAndPaychecks" data-source="post: 3033830" data-attributes="member: 28854">*nods*That's my position in a nutshell.  The only thing I'd add is that you can't learn everything about the situation by rolling a d20 against the numbers on your character sheet; the players should engage their brains as well.All I'm objecting to is the idea that because a rogue hasn't found the trap by rolling a d20, the players are then entitled to assume that there's no trap.Well, the answer to this goes fairly far afield from the thread title.In a nutshell, I don't personally like plots at all, very much.  Nor do I like purpose-created BBEG's.Personally I see it as the DM's role to create an interesting and challenging area for the players to explore.  Imo it's up to the players to find reasons to explore it -- in which case you don't need to devise a plot at all.In other words, I think that plot and story are the result of fantasy gaming.  They don't need to be processes within it, and I don't think the DM needs to worry about them at all.I'm not necessarily defending this particular trap (which I think is a bit dull anyway.)  I'm saying that the trap isn't inherently "unfair", and that calling it "unfair" is symptomatic of roll-playing games where the dice and the character sheets have to be allowed to define the outcome.What I AM defending is the idea of traps, or situations, that challenge the players rather than the characters.  I think D&D is more fun when you have to play it with your brain in gear.It's fair to ask the players to think outside the box, yes.  Where you get this atom thing from I have no idea.And that, in a nutshell, is the fundamental issue.  I think that if the CHARACTERS can overcome all the situations to be found in the game, then there is no demand made on the PLAYERS to engage their brains.And if the game doesn't need any thought from the players, then in what sense is it a game?To me, D&D is and should be partly a game of skill, strategy, and thought.  It's also partly a game of roleplaying and, yes, partly a game of luck, but I think the suggestion that the characters should be able to overcome all obstables without reference to the players does need to be challenged.(I think that it's also partly a game of character design, and I think that's a lamentable failure in the rules which has become particularly pervasive with the present edition, although the seeds of it were in all the previous editions as well.)Ayup, and that's a common attitude.  What it leads to, inevitably, is the expectation that all obstables can be overcome by rolling d20's.  I think that's detrimental to the fun of the game.Surely they got a D-.They assumed that pulling the lever was to their advantage - or even that they were "supposed" to pull the lever.  Ass, you, me, etc.They then assumed that if there were a trap, their rogue would probably find it.  (Reliance on the d20 to solve the problem:  100%).  They then assumed that if their rogue had failed to find it, the safest thing to do would be to have the character with the highest saves pull the lever.  (Reliance on the d20 to solve the problem:  100%).They didn't think of using a rope to pull the lever.  They didn't think of capturing a prisoner or questioning it about the lever.  They didn't think of using a spell or informational magic.  In fact, the amount of thought these players put into the situation was precisely zero.And there's much subsequent whining about playstyles in which you CAN'T rely on the d20 in this thread - and indeed much sneering about those playstyles.  All hail the holy d20.You (and it seems many other people in this thread) would consider me a monstrously, savagely unfair DM.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I unfairly demand that the players show thought and strategy and, yes, skill.  I unfairly allow players who play thoughtlessly or rely on the d20 to solve their problems to die.  And I unfairly reward those players who play thoughtfully, trusting their actions rather than their character sheets, with success and wealth and experience.  What a damnably unfair man I am!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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