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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PapersAndPaychecks" data-source="post: 3034708" data-attributes="member: 28854">I think you're still not understanding me, and I think that's partly my fault for not being clear.   Let me try to illustrate my point through examples.Sample dialogue 1:PLAYER:  I bribe the customs man not to look in the wagons.DM:  Okay, roll your d20.PLAYER:  A 13.DM:  You succeed.PLAYER:  We go into the city and I fence the painting we found.DM:  Okay, roll your d20.PLAYER:  A 7.DM:  You're offered 500 gold pieces for it.PLAYER:  Bah.  I'll take the offer.  (Amends character sheet.)DM:  What now?PLAYER:  We'll head back to the dungeon.DM:  Okay (rolls dice)... you get there without incident.Sample dialogue 2:PLAYER:  I bribe the customs man not to look in the wagons.DM:  What do you say, exactly?PLAYER:  (Slipping into character):  "That looks like dull work, good sir.  And I'll bet the pay's none too good, either."DM:  (Playing the customs man):  "Aye, that's true enough."PLAYER:  "Perhaps a contribution from some well-meaning citizen, as a token of our appreciation for your selfless devotion to duty, might be welcome?"DM:  "Perhaps it would!"PLAYER:  I pass him a handful of gold pieces.DM:  The customs man grins as he waves you past.PLAYER:  I'll try to fence the painting.DM:  How do you go about it, exactly?PLAYER:  Well, I'll pop back to the Cup & Blade Tavern and look to see if Hakil's around.DM:  A little later on, after stabling your horses, you make your way into the tavern.  There are about fifteen people in the bar, even though it's before sunset.  Hakil isn't anywhere around.PLAYER:  I approach the barman and greet him, and ask him where Hakil is.DM:  What do you say?...Dialogue 1 depends on dice rolls; dialogue 2 doesn't involve any dice rolling at all.  Dialogue 1 is quickly resolved, a lot happening in a short period of time; dialogue 2 zooms in on the details, and eats up a lot more time.I think that every DM uses a combination of those techniques to determine what happens. There's always an element of dice rolling and an element of skipping over the details.  There's also always an element of DM judgment based on the actions that the players declare.  That's the game.I'm not saying that dice should never have relevance.  Likewise, you're not saying that DM judgment calls have no place.  I also do NOT think you're saying that player skill should be irrelevant, although perhaps you're in a little danger of painting yourself into that corner.The question, I think, is whether this lever trap should be resolved along the lines of Dialogue 1 or Dialogue 2.Personally, my bias is this:  I find the "dialogue 1" style where you just roll over the details (pun intended) very dull and totally inappropriate for dungeoneering.  At the end of the day dungeoneering needs to be high adventure with plenty of tension and I think it needs to be treated "dialogue 2" style.Roll-playing approach to this trap:PLAYER:  I search for traps.DM:  Roll away.PLAYER:  Err, actually I take 20.DM:  K.  You don't find a trap.PLAYER:  The monk pulls the lever.DM:  Roll a saving throw.PLAYER:  A 19.DM:  You fail and crumble to dust.I agree, this is a crappy approach to gaming and no fun for anyone.My approach to this trap:PLAYER:  I search for traps.DM:  How do you go about it, exactly?Answer 1:  "Hey, am I a thief in real life?  Just give me the d20."Answer 2:  "Hmm.  Describe this lever in more detail."If your reaction is to come back with answer 1, you're not going to survive a game I run.  It's really that simple.  But I think most gamers would come back with answer 2, and maybe we'd have a game going.</blockquote>

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