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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ourph" data-source="post: 3038009" data-attributes="member: 20239">Then why did the Rogue search for traps on the lever in the first place?This is why this argument (that there's no reason to believe the lever is trapped) is ultimately flawed.  The party is already taking precautions based on the suspicion that there IS a trap.  They have the Rogue search.  They have the person with the best saves pull the lever.  Both of these actions have been lauded as "appropriate" in this thread.I don't think the argument that "there's no reason to suspect a trap" meets the a priori conditions of the OP's post.  It's obvious that the PCs already suspect a trap because they are taking precautions against the presence of one.  As soon as the Rogue declares that he is searching for traps, the hurdle of suspicion has already been cleared and the question of whether the PCs should suspect a trap on the lever is moot.  It's obvious they DO suspect a trap on the lever by the actions that are described in the OP.The real question is "Did the PCs do a good job of investigating their suspicions?".  IMO, having a single character make a single skill check isn't "adequate" by any means.  Especially when that single skill check is meant to oppose the potential of a trap that could seriously harm or kill a PC.  A trap is an "encounter" just like any other encounter.  It has a CR and you get XP for overcoming it.  A level appropriate encounter is, on average, supposed to consume 1/5 of the party's daily resources.  A CR appropriate trap which is automatically detectable by the Rogue character taking 20 consumes close to 0 of the party's resources.  It consumes time, but only a fractional amount of the time the party has available to them and nowhere NEAR enough to account for 1/5 of their daily resources.  However, a party who does an adequate job of checking out THIS trap will almost assuredly consume somewhere around 1/5 of their daily resources avoiding the consequences of the trap.  An Augury followed up by Mage Hand, Unseen Servant or Summon Monster I would be much more in line with consuming the appropriate amount of resources.I have refrained from commenting on whether the "unfair" camp in this thread is arguing for a game that is "too easy", but having followed this line of reasoning to it's logical and numerical conclusion I will say that those arguing the "unfair" side are certainly arguing for a game in which traps do not present the same amount of challenge to a party that a monster encounter of similar CR would present.  IMO the challenge level guidelines, at the very least, support the idea that traps which are undetectable by taking 20 are well within the range of level appropriate encounters for a group of PCs.  After all, a creature of CR equal to the party's average level will almost never be defeated by a single action of a single character which receives the benefit of an automatic maximum on the die roll, so why should traps be any different?</blockquote>

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