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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FireLance" data-source="post: 3038802" data-attributes="member: 3424">It's not exactly a case of misleading the players. Rather, the point I was trying to make is: if the DM suddenly demands different things of his players, and imposes significant consequences for failing to live up to the new expectations, the situation starts to look unfair.A comparable scenario might be camping out for the night in the wilderness. The party is used to taking basic precautions such as having a sentry and sleeping in light armor. The DM usually calls for Spot and Listen checks for the sentry. Sometimes, the sentry succeeds on the checks and manages to alert the party before the threat arrives. Sometimes, the sentry fails the checks and the party gets surprised by a monster. Sometimes, the party finds itself outmatched and has to run.Given this set-up, a situation comparable to the OP's trap might be: the DM calls for Spot and Listen checks from the sentry, and despite the fact that the sentry is a ranger with decent Wisdom, maxed out Spot and Listen, and made good rolls (19 each), he fails to notice the threat. The monster surprises the sentry, rolls a 2 on its attack roll and manages to hit him anyway. The DM rolls damage and declares that the sentry is dead.An observer who is used to a different style of play would state that the encounter is "fair" because the party's wizard did not cast alarm, the party did not search for a cave with a single entrance that could be trapped (perhaps with a rope) or camouflaged, did not search for signs or ask about rumors of dangerous creatures in the area before making camp, and probably list many other simple precautions that the party did not take that might have prevented this outcome.None of this takes into account the fact that the DM previously had not required his players to take such extensive precautions before camping for the night, and has now decided to make them necessary to prevent the likely death of a character. It's the gaming equivalent of smuggling a gun into a school, shooting a student and saying it is fair because it could have been prevented if the school decided to search your bag before allowing you in.</blockquote>

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