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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3038839" data-attributes="member: 18280">I would say a more comparable situation would be:The party is used to taking basic precautions such as having a sentry and sleeping in light armor when camping in the wilderness. The DM usually calls for Spot and Listen checks for the sentry. Sometimes, the sentry succeeds on the checks and manages to alert the party before the threat arrives. Sometimes, the sentry fails the checks and the party gets surprised by a monster. Sometimes, the party finds itself outmatched and has to run.Given this set-up, a situation comparable to the OP's trap might be: The PCs enter the dungeon, slay lots of monsters (but not all) and leave.  They then camp several yards from the dungeon entrance.  The DM calls for Spot and Listen checks from the sentry, and despite the fact that the sentry is a ranger with decent Wisdom, maxed out Spot and Listen, and made good rolls (19 each), he fails to notice the threat. The monster surprises the sentry, rolls a 2 on its attack roll and manages to hit him anyway. The DM rolls damage and declares that the sentry is dead.55-56% of the players protest because they were camped out in the "wilderness" same as before.An observer states that the encounter is "fair" because the proximity of the dungeon means that the PCs should have taken greater precautions.  Someone claims that the monsters should have used the time, instead, to plan an ambush within the dungeon.  Someone else claims that the encounter is unfair because the monster was an X instead of a Y, but when asked if the encounter would be fair if the monster was Y instead claims that it is unfair for some other reason.  Yet another person claims that this means the party must always take elaborate precautions whenever they sleep, regardless of situation, because he is unable to tell the difference between sleeping next to the dungeon entrance and sleeping in a reputable inn.One player claims that the DM previously had not required his players to take such extensive precautions before camping for the night, and has now decided to make them necessary to prevent the likely death of a character.   The DM points out that the necessities haven't changed; the PCs have simply never camped in such a mind-bogglingly obviously dangerous place before.RC</blockquote>

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