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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3043163" data-attributes="member: 18280">Okay, I'm back.ThirdWizard,I doubt that any form of reasoning will change the minds of some people on this thread, although there are others who's arguments do not rely on the "cowardice" of the DM in question.Previously, you had agreed with Post 572, to wit:F you accept the assumptions are true, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap is unfair. IF you do not accept that the assumptions are all true, but do not aver that the assumptions are false, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap may or may not be fair, and that more information is required to make a statement that the trap is fair or unfair. IF you believe that one or more of the assumptions is not true, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap is fair. The assumptions in question are: (1) The DM has introduced a trap that he knows the PCs cannot detect with Search. (2) That the trap will kill any PC who activates it unless they roll a 20 on a saving throw. (3) That the DM has given no hints to the PCs that it is dangerous.As an aside, Ridley's Cohort suggests that "a trap that is truly undetectable or unforeseeable and also deadly could be unfair even if it were DC 12 or DC 2."  I admit that I waffle on whether or not I accept this.  If we were discussing creatures, for example, a monstrous spider might be able to hide in such a way as to be undetectable by the party's average (or even best) Spot check, resulting in a potentially dangerous, or even deadly poisoning (depending upon what other challenges the poisoned character must then face).  This would also make nearly any trap unfair to a group that does not contain a rogue....in other words, the DM becomes responsible for the players' lack of party balance or foresight.  This is a really nasty conclusion, IMHO, and leads back into those "player entitlement" and "sense of wonder" threads that were so despised some time ago.  On those threads, largely due to the arguments of Hussar, I was eventually convinced that "player entitlement" was a phantom created by a vocal minority on the Internet.  Threads like this, where there are clear numbers and percentages, make me begin to think that the reasoning which convinced me earlier was wrong.  Aside over.ThirdWizard, oddly enough, while we agree that there can be a logical conclusion that the trap is unfair, fair, or that the fairness cannot be determined, we do not agree that the three potential conclusions in that post correspond with the possible choices on this poll, which are also YES (that the trap is unfair), NO (that the trap is not unfair; i.e., that it is fair), and MAYBE (that the trap may or may not be fair, depending upon circumstances we do not know).I'm not really sure how to proceed with that.  In effect, you are arguing that we can, say, logically determine that the trap is fair, but that our conclusion should not be that someone who voted "unfair" is not being illogical, but rather that we need to alter the logical conclusion to meet the subjective needs of the person who voted "unfair".So, I'll ignore the poll question/responses for the moment being, and look at just what you and I agree upon.The OP states:You’ve cleared out the dungeon and found the McGuffin you were seeking. Then you come to a room located in the back corner of the dungeon. In the room is only a large lever sticking up out of the floor. You search the room and find a secret door in one wall. You can’t find a way to open the door. The rogue searches the door and lever for traps, and finds none. The monk pulls the lever. He has to make a saving throw – he rolls a 19 on the die, adds in his mods, and fails the save. He turns into a pile of fine dust on the floor.From this, I make a number of assumptions:(1)  That the word useage indicates that there is only one rogue and one monk in the party.(2)  The party members are all the same level.(3)  The monk has the highest saves in the party.(4)  None of the characters has multi-classes and has rogue or monk levels.(5)  Motivation enough exists to cause the rogue to search for traps on the secret door and the lever.(6)  The above mentioned motivation can be due to a number of factors, including (but not limited to) knowledge of play style, previous encounters in this complex, knowledge of real world traps, knowledge of the real world implications of levers, previous encounters in the campaign, etc.So, before examining the three assumptions required to make this trap unfair (or, if you are Ridley's Cohort, you only require #1 and #3 to be valid), let us examine the hypothetical scenario given, and determine what information we can derive therefrom.So, given the six assumptions derived from the OP, what do you agree with, and what do you disagree with, and why?RC</blockquote>

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