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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ThirdWizard" data-source="post: 3049059" data-attributes="member: 12037">There is no decision to make the PCs walk through the doorway backwards. There is a doorway and it is trapped. The PCs can walk through the doorway forward if they want. They'll just die. Just like the PCs can pull the lever if they want. They'll just die.That's an assumption. We know the rogue used the Search skill, we do not know how. It could be that he spent 1 round. It could be that he spent 20. There is no way for us to know either way.I disagree. For a trap to be objectively fair, there has to be an objectively correct way to to handle traps.How about this? The objectively correct way to check for traps is to make a Search check and assume you are correct in your check. Therefore, the only objectively fair traps are those which can be detected with the search skill of the PC with the highest possible Search check. Therefore, the trap in question is objecively unfair.QEDCan you prove that wrong? If it is objective, you can provide a proof to the contrary.No, it isn't. And it is insulting. If there is an objectively fair way to handle traps, then there has to be an objectively correct way to approach traps as a PC. Otherwise, the trap wouldn't be objectively fair. If there weren't an objectively fair way to approach traps in game as a PC then it would be impossible to know if a trap were fair or not unless we know the group's playstyle.Which is what I've been saying all along. Fairness is completely determined by the group dynamic. There is no objectively fair trap that is independant of the group its attached to. There is no control group that completely lacks a playstyle which we can examine to determiine what is fair or unfair.This trap in particular is indicative of a playstyle that practically died out in the larger gaming community about a decade and a half ago. If ENWorld weren't made up of so many old school gamers who started in OD&D and 1e D&D then I would imagine that the numbers would be skewed even further toward unfair. That a community made up of so many old schoolers still has a majority that says its unfair should indicate this to us.That's exactly how it works. You keep saying that there is an objective fairness. That just isn't true unless you start preaching the One True Way, which I know you won't do. There is no magical group out there who can determine whether something is fair or not, because there is no context that you are putting it in other than "all games everywhere."There can probably be an objective fair in tournament modules designed for a particular group. There can probably be an objective fair in Living campaigns in the RPGA. There can probably be objective fair in a particular DM's given home game. There cannot be an objective fair that has any validity in all games everywhere.I disagree. There isn't enough information for me to make a decision.</blockquote>

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