is this homebrew race balanced?

messy

Explorer
allo

this is an elf variant. does it look balanced?

traits shared with typical elves:
medium size
base speed 30 feet
immunity to magic sleep effects
low-light vision
elven weapon proficiency
+2 racial bonus on listen, search, and spot checks
secret/concealed door sense
automatic/bonus languages as typical elf
level adjustment +0 (this is in boldface because it's the important part -- i'd like to keep this race at LA +0.)

unique traits:
-2 strength, +2 Dexterity, -4 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
+2 racial saving throw bonus against spells and spell-like abilities (this replaces a typical elf's save bonus vs. enchantment).

thanx :)

messy :cool:
 

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Some people feel that racial bonuses to Mental stats on a LA+0 race is a bad idea (You will notice that none in the PHB do so). Also while a str and con penalty isn't the end of the world for a race that favors spellcasters. This variant gives you a -2 to Hit Points when most people will be choosing a class with a d4 for hitpoints. So you start the game with 2 hitpoints and will be going up 1 hitpoint on average a level. Anyone not having a deathwish will have to put a really high score in con, which means that they will have less high scores for Int, Dex and Cha, kinda killing the benefit you are trying to provide.

I think the Gray Elf in the MM is the farthest you should go for creating a race meant to be a spell caster. If you would rather have a high charisma than int, for example switch it around so it is -2 Str, +2 to Dex, -2 to Con, +2 to Cha. (more of a Star Elf variant I guess).

The +2 to saves vs spells is pretty huge as well since 9-10 that is what forces a save.

Just my opinion, you know what you are aiming for in your campaign more than I do.
 

DragonTurtle said:
Some people feel that racial bonuses to Mental stats on a LA+0 race is a bad idea (You will notice that none in the PHB do so). Also while a str and con penalty isn't the end of the world for a race that favors spellcasters. This variant gives you a -2 to Hit Points when most people will be choosing a class with a d4 for hitpoints. So you start the game with 2 hitpoints and will be going up 1 hitpoint on average a level. Anyone not having a deathwish will have to put a really high score in con, which means that they will have less high scores for Int, Dex and Cha, kinda killing the benefit you are trying to provide.

well said, though i further increased the constitution penalty to compensate for the bonuses to intelligence and charisma.

balanced? or killing the benefit?

messy
 
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I've got no problem with the stat bonuses since as DragonTurtle said the big con penalty outweighs the Spellcaster bonus to Int.

However I do agree that the +2 to saves vs spells and spell-like effects is HUGE and imho would be worth a LA+1 (at least)

even stripping out the Skill bonuses and Secret Door detector wont balance that...
 

messy said:
well said, though i further increased the constitution penalty to compensate for the bonuses to intelligence and charisma.

balanced? or killing the benefit?

messy

Honestly in most games that aren't on the lowest power scale, a +1 to a spell DC is not game breaking, as anyone playing a spellcaster knows, it is hard to get any bonuses to your DCs, and most high level opponents have such good saves you just hope they roll a 1. That being said, the only class that kinda abuses the stat bonuses you use are the warmage, they get a few more hitpoints than most spellcasters and benefit from both Int and Cha. (just something to be aware of). So dropping the big bonus to saves, I don't think your elves will ruin the game, however they are so skewed to spell casting, that you may find no one ever playing an elven ranger, fighter or even rogues, Con is just too important of a stat for every class.

These are just some observations, you know your world and your players better than I do. As I mentioned I would do either a charisma or Intelligence bonus and lessen the con penalty so that other class types are viable. However if in your world, elves are equally adept at sorcery and wizardry then what you have makes sense.
 

I am always a bit leery of races that ahve lots of ability adjustments, particularly a bonuses to physical/mental and penalties to the toehr half. Not only does the pidgeonhole the race, but it makes it a lot ahrder to play, especially when a -4 comes into play on such a critical stat as fortitude. Not only the hp loss forthe average spellcaster, but also the fortitude save loss (Which will usually be poor anyway). would make the character have such a glass jaw ahgainst any real-world effects like poison, disease, fatigue, etc that they would not be suitable for the adventuring life.

The bonuses to saves are too high in my opinion. Just plain adding them onto the elve's already high-end abiliteis makes it unbalanced in my opinion. Switching out a minor enchantment save for that is not a fair tradeoff.

All that said, the race is not bad at all, as it has enough drawbacks to not be a must-take race (like many of the elven subtypes.)

DWM
 

Tonguez said:
However I do agree that the +2 to saves vs spells and spell-like effects is HUGE and imho would be worth a LA+1 (at least)

dwarves have the same quality ;)

anyhow, thanks for all the input, folks :cool: maybe i'll just go with the gray elf... core, +2 intelligence, no hassle...

messy :cool:
 

The one thing I'd add to this discussion:

While the CON penalty might balance the INT/CHA boosts nicely on paper (since as has been pointed out, a -4 CON on a d4 HD really hurts), think about what'll happen once you get to higher levels, and people have access to +CON and +INT/+CHA items. If a player knows his character will always have access to these items (say, if he's being generated purely for a high-level campaign), the balance doesn't work.

Let's say we're using a point-buy system, and Character A (stock human) starts with INT 16, CON 12. Character B (your elf) starts with INT 18, CON 8 for the same number of points expended (and of course he'll also have +2 DEX, +2 CHA, and -2 STR, a net gain for a caster). Okay, at low levels, character B will be crippled. And if he uses his level-based stat boosts to raise CON by 2, the human could do the same for his INT. But what if B waits until they both have access to a +4 CON item and +6 INT item?
A would have INT 22 (plus level boosts), CON 16.
B would have INT 24 (plus level boosts), CON 12.

Basically, after a certain point, extra CON is only really useful for a caster if you EXPECT to be hit; your spells give enough AC/miss chance/whatever to keep you safe most of the time. So maybe character A won't bother with the CON item, but nothing he does will let him catch B in INT.
This also applies in a high-powered campaign. Say, for instance, a 32-point buy system; it's not hard to have a CON of 14 under that system, and subtracting 4 still gives you an "average" score.

Now, I'm not saying that caster-oriented races would be a bad thing; a little bit of pigeonholing can work to your advantage by providing a baseline to construct a culture around. But personally, I'd do it some way other than raising casting stats. (And remember that INT+2 basically duplicates the Human racial skill boost.)

For instance, if you're trying to boost the ability of the race in regards to arcane casting, give some other boost. For instance, pick one or two of the following:
> +1 to arcane spell DC (which mimics the INT and CHA boosts, but without the bonus spells or skill benefits); maybe limit it to a specific school.
> Any caster-level-dependent benefits of the spells treat the caster as if he were a level higher. (A fireball by a level 5 Wizard would do 6d6 damage). All normal caps still apply.
> Certain spells are always treated as known by the caster. (IMC, we did this for Gnomes, giving them their three cantrips for free and letting them cast two extra cantrips per day, instead of each being 1/day.)
> Let them refresh their spell repertoire with only 4 hours of rest instead of 8.
> Give them the ability to counterspell more effectively (however you want to do this)
> Free metamagic. For instance, let them empower any spell 3/day without raising the spell's spell level, with the Sorcerer's increase in casting time.

This lets you boost their casting ability a little without requiring such a huge drawback; you might only need CON -2, and that's a lot less limiting on a character's construction.

Now, EyeontheMountain pointed out that races with tons of ability adjustments are iffy, but I've done it before, mostly successfully. We had an ECL+0 Half-Ogre in our campaign that was (STR +4, DEX -2, CON +2, INT -2, WIS -2, CHA -4), and while it was of course skewed towards melee combat, it fit into the world remarkably well.
 

I'll just reiterate a point: more than the standard +2/-2 becomes unbalanced with point buy. You end up being able to get a net increase in stats, because you put the bonuses in your high scores (worth 2 or 3 points per/statpoint) and your penalties in low scores (worth only 1 / statpoint).
 

If you drop the magic save bonus to only a +1 then the race seems well balanced.

They make great casters but they all go *squish* as soon as they get hit. Heck, a tenth level human commoner may be able to kill a 10th level wizard of this race, particularly if the commoner remains undected until he attacks. A tenth level orc warrior would roxxor a core caster built from this race.
I don't find this to be a bad thing. :cool:
 

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