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Is Tolerance a Lawful thing ?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8656579" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>So, first you'll have to define specifically what you mean by tolerance. By tolerance I mean, "the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with." I would suggest that tolerance is very much associated with patience and stoicism and self-control, and those are very much Lawful Good virtues.</p><p></p><p>Typically when Chaotics attacks the morals of Lawfuls it's because they have an overly simplistic stereotyped view of the Lawful morality. It's not at all unusual for a Lawful moral system to define specifically the areas of personal freedom of choice that individuals are allowed, and then for that system to say specifically, "Just you made a different choice doesn't mean that other individual made the wrong choice. You must tolerate the differences you see between yourself and others." Like really, even though strictly speaking my moral code is not Lawful, it always annoys me to hear average Americans discussing lawful morality because it's foreign to them. Like this discussion I feel needs to be headed up by someone from South Korea who wants their parents to arrange their marriage, or a pious Mormon, or a very pious Catholic, or someone else with a deep sense of belonging to a community. Otherwise it tends to be ugly stereotypes.</p><p>Now a very strictly Lawful society might well be all about erasing all individual differences, and in that case tolerance most certainly won't be a virtue. But Lawful Good systems are obviously and by definition compromising on Lawful principles like uniformity or conformity because they are also equally celebrating Good as Law. So when you ask about Lawful Good, you are very much complicating the discussion. The Lawful Good adherent has things the law requires him to be tolerant of, while at the same time requires him to have things he will not tolerate. And for the most part, most long lasting human ethical codes tend towards that 'Lawful Good' part of the spectrum, at least in theory, because really attempts to erase all human differences run into the problem that they are impractical and anti-human and run down hill. The theoretical far end of the Pure Lawful spectrum only works for something like a Modron or maybe The Borg. It's an alien thing and even most human fiction on the subject deals with how impractical it is. </p><p>The other thing to note is that intolerance in a broad sense can be associated with almost any alignment. Like even something like Chaotic Good has minimum standards of behavior and the non-altruistic Chaotics (CN and CE) have interpretations where the adherent is intolerant of everything that isn't self, and they only differ in how they respond to the not-self. And all alignments are by definition intolerant of each other.</p><p></p><p>And part of this has to do probably with the fact that even though the alignment system is reasonably complex, it really can't fit reality exactly and so some concepts just don't fit exactly anywhere because were have 2 axis and the real world has like N.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8656579, member: 4937"] So, first you'll have to define specifically what you mean by tolerance. By tolerance I mean, "the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with." I would suggest that tolerance is very much associated with patience and stoicism and self-control, and those are very much Lawful Good virtues. Typically when Chaotics attacks the morals of Lawfuls it's because they have an overly simplistic stereotyped view of the Lawful morality. It's not at all unusual for a Lawful moral system to define specifically the areas of personal freedom of choice that individuals are allowed, and then for that system to say specifically, "Just you made a different choice doesn't mean that other individual made the wrong choice. You must tolerate the differences you see between yourself and others." Like really, even though strictly speaking my moral code is not Lawful, it always annoys me to hear average Americans discussing lawful morality because it's foreign to them. Like this discussion I feel needs to be headed up by someone from South Korea who wants their parents to arrange their marriage, or a pious Mormon, or a very pious Catholic, or someone else with a deep sense of belonging to a community. Otherwise it tends to be ugly stereotypes. Now a very strictly Lawful society might well be all about erasing all individual differences, and in that case tolerance most certainly won't be a virtue. But Lawful Good systems are obviously and by definition compromising on Lawful principles like uniformity or conformity because they are also equally celebrating Good as Law. So when you ask about Lawful Good, you are very much complicating the discussion. The Lawful Good adherent has things the law requires him to be tolerant of, while at the same time requires him to have things he will not tolerate. And for the most part, most long lasting human ethical codes tend towards that 'Lawful Good' part of the spectrum, at least in theory, because really attempts to erase all human differences run into the problem that they are impractical and anti-human and run down hill. The theoretical far end of the Pure Lawful spectrum only works for something like a Modron or maybe The Borg. It's an alien thing and even most human fiction on the subject deals with how impractical it is. The other thing to note is that intolerance in a broad sense can be associated with almost any alignment. Like even something like Chaotic Good has minimum standards of behavior and the non-altruistic Chaotics (CN and CE) have interpretations where the adherent is intolerant of everything that isn't self, and they only differ in how they respond to the not-self. And all alignments are by definition intolerant of each other. And part of this has to do probably with the fact that even though the alignment system is reasonably complex, it really can't fit reality exactly and so some concepts just don't fit exactly anywhere because were have 2 axis and the real world has like N. [/QUOTE]
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