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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 2702437" data-attributes="member: 19675">I didn't say that it didn't.  In fact, I specifically said that it DOES but that using it RAW is not the intention of the designers.  I know that this is the D&D rules forum- where we discuss what the rules mean.  However, just because a rule is written a particular way, doesn't make it correct.  RAW is important, but using your brain to analyze RAW is every bit as important.  I'm not talking about house-ruling, but rather trying to decipher what the designers meant when drafted a rule a particular way.Consider, for a moment, old errors from 2Ed.  In the 1st printing of 2Ed, Rogues were proficient in broadsword, and Bards were allowed to multiclass.  Problem- no broadsword was statted out in the book, and the next reprint of 2Ed omitted multiclassing Bards.  RAW, Rogues were proficient in a non-existent weapon; Bards could or could not multiclass based on which PHB you had.  The Monstrous Compendium listings for the standard vampire and Oriental vampire are identical- elsewhere they are not.In other words, RAW is just the beginning of rules analysis.My contention is that VoP (as well as some of the other vows) is meant to help players simulate the saintly human beings and dieties (depending on the particular theology) of the real world, like Padre Pio, Buddha, Jesus, etc.- to whom are attributed miracles.  Many of the Exalted Feats are obviously based on aspects of miracles attributed to such saints- Nimbus of Light, Stigmata.To use a strict RAW reading of VoP would prevent such a PC from doing things that most closely resemble the very deeds such saints are said to have done seems, IMHO, ludicrous.In my previous post, I bolded the spells I thought most closely resembled the deeds of the saints.  I should have included Atonement, Prayer, and Walk on Water...but the point is that many of the spells you would expect a god's most favored servants are precisely those that are omitted by using VoP RAW.  To further highlight the problem, I present the complete alphabetical list of Cleric/Paladin PHB spells not requiring divine foci (with level in parentheses), eliminating the evil spells as well, and domains listed when it is the only way to gain access to the spell:(* Note: Some of these spells, such as Legend Lore, and Miracle have expensive components, but I didn't want to take the time to examine component costs for all of these spells.)If you don't see one you expect, there's a reason. VoP Clerics and Paladins can't bless anything but water or weapons, cast  most protection spells, can't consecrate anything, can barely detect or dispel anything that REALLY needs detecting, help anyone atone, or bring back the dead..what kind of divine servants ARE these guys?  (Note, of all the 2nd level buff spells, only the 2 Cat's Grace spells don't require a DF- I suspect a typo.)And since they aren't allowed Holy Symbols, they not only won't be able to turn any undead, they can't use any of the feats that present alternative uses for turning.I ask you, what is left?Nope.BoED p30Absolutely no mention is made of the timing of the begging.How?  Specifically.OK.  Here are the consequences of using VoP RAW in that case.Assuming a 1st lvl Human Wizard with Sacred Vow & VoP, plus any Exalted feat you like, as per the benefits of VoP...The PC will be able to cast one 1st level spell...TOTAL...until he reaches his 3rd character level and can take Spell Mastery.  That spell will be Read Magic, since he cannot own a spellbook from which to rememorize other spells and Read Magic is the only spell he can cast without one.  He'll be having a lot of fun casting Read Magic over and over, then whacking someone in the head with his staff, and being stabbed by the opponents.Do you honestly think that a Wizard who can only cast Read Magic will last 3 levels as an adventuring PC?Assuming an Elf Wizard who takes Sacred Vow at 1st, then VoP at 3rd...He will first cast off his spellbook and accumulated foci and magic items.  He will then exhaust the spells he has memorized on his next adventure or so.  Then he will only be able to cast Read Magic over and over again until he reaches 6th level and can take Spell Mastery.  See above.A PC Wizard taking VoP at ANY level (in a RAW VoP campaign) will fall into this trap.  While he will be gaining Exalted feats as bonuses, once he takes VoP, he will be a powerless spellcaster until he earns his next bonus feat due to PC advancement.</blockquote>

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