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Message: <blockquote data-quote="two" data-source="post: 3273493" data-attributes="member: 9002">3.0 hasteThis reminds me - a lot - of the old 3.0 haste discussions that raged.One excellent way to get to the root of it is this... (thinking about haste now):If 3.0 haste were stripped from 3.0 entirely - never existed - and then suddenly a player came to you with 3.0 haste and asked if it was a reasonable 3rd level spell, what would your line of logic be?3.0 haste:  no action to cast (as you immediately get another partial)3.0 haste:  allows 2 spells/round or partial charge/full attack for the fightersTo try to judge an appropriate spell level, what does it take to get 2 spells off in a round.  Quicken, bump up 4 levels, or ... contingency... time stop... various other high level combos.Yet you cast 3.0 haste and can suddenly cast 2 spells a round with no penalty?  (one is not at +4 spell levels or anything).  And it lasts X level rounds?  Plus has other effects (partial charge + full attack was always gross for melee guys).As a GM you would laugh, and call it a level 8 or 9 spell.  Honestly, if 3.0 haste never existed, then was brought in as a level 9 spell, it would STILL be taken fairly regularly by high level casters.  It compares well to time stop:  time stop lets you do it in one round, while haste of course spreads out the pain over X rounds.  Or, haste, THEN time stop... ha ha.++++++++So do the same with Wraithstrike.  Act like it never existed. Have a player offer it as a 2nd level spell.  As a GM, do you laugh him out of the room?You do.Comparing to Deep Impact (the best parallel) gives a spell level of 4-5 for a single attack; for full attacks... what... 7-8 level?  As an immediate action + full attacks...that's ridiculous.++++++++3.0 haste was "slap me in the face" way too powerful, yet some people argued it was ok in "their campaigns."  That's not what we are talking about.  Overall, it was a very poor spell for the game as a whole.  It was used far too much, and it was much too good for any caster not to select.I feel the same about Wraithstrike.  So trivially easy to abuse and maximize, and the insta-cast feature is absurd.Plus, there is NO way to avoid TPK vs. dragons at this point.  If the dragons are wise and smart - and they are - they will be using Wraithstrike all the time.  With full power attack.  I mean, really, every round they can.  They will absolutely kill any PC with 2-3 hits, and they WILL hit.  Why would a DRAGON not always cast this spell?  What, he's waiting for the other 3-4 adventuring parties to come attack him?  Why would a PC NOT cast 3.0 haste? There were times...but overall, combats always featured haste.  Why would a melee PC or monster that COULD cast Wraithstrike (or have it in an item) not use it as often as possible?  No downside.  They would.  Makes for a very binary game.</blockquote>

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