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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 3277850" data-attributes="member: 2525">And I am saying that once or twice is hardly a fair sample to ban a spell, particularly since it sure sounded like they were both high level games with optimized characters.Tell you what, work it out.  Everyone has mentioned arcane strike as being important for the combo to work, so work those requirements in as well.  From what I can tell, it's simply not a useful spell in 99% of the cases until around 10th level, and it doesn't really make a big impact until later, and only with Gish's, and only Gish's who dedicate their feats to make it happen.  It's not just power attack.  If all you have is power attack to back this up, you're dead.  You need to be a melee combatant who also has many spellcasting levels to get the 2nd level spell slots, and you need to be facing opponants where it even matters.  When you work that out, it seems to be to be a fairly tight window of times when it is useful over the career of an adventurer from level 1 to 20.You're wrong, and I think I'm not the only one that has detailed that.  Most people were arguing stackig 4-5 things on top of each other, at high levels, to get the desired result out of this spell.  A 7th level anything will not make great use of this spell.  Nor at any level below that for the most part.  Oh gee, a FRIGGEN DRAGON is your common example? Common man, there is a reason it's called Dungeons and Dragons.  They made the dragons quite powerful.  They are melee combatants and spellcasters with powerful stats across the board.  Of COURSE it helps them.  But they are not a fair example.Work it out.  I think you are quite wrong in this claim, but let's see you actually work out the numbers on such a PC.  See if you can make it a continually effective tactic at levels below 8.Again, having to turn to one of the few spells WOTC admitted as so broken they had to do a retroactive fix on it.  Come on...if it is so easy, you don't need to turn to dragons and busted spell combos of discredited spells to work it out.A dragon and polymorphing under the old rules to be a melee fighter as a wizard is not optimized?  How about completely optimized.  Those two examples don't apply in 99%+ of the games out there.So build it.  Show us the example at a reasonable level. Because to use that second level spell you need to be both high level and have other abilities to make you good at melee attacks, like multiple attacks, high hit points, a high AC of your own, and enough spell slots to make it useful.  It's not "just" a second level spell, it's a second level spell that apparently almost only high level characters can actually make good use out of.Alter self into the highest AC creature in the game is dumb?  In debates in these forums about that spell, and awful lot of folks thought that tactic alone was very broken.I am seeing a pattern here...you keep mentioning other combos that are themselves already overpowered, and combining them with this spell and proclaiming it broken.  Couldn't it be the other stuff?It's not really basic low level stuff.  There are entire multi-page long threads talking about how not common that is.</blockquote>

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