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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5083087" data-attributes="member: 4937">Technically, under the RAW, this should never happen which is the reason there are no explicit rules to cover it.&nbsp; As a practical matter I'd say, &quot;Use more diplomacy.&quot; or present some additional evidence.&nbsp; &nbsp;I think you are probably right.&nbsp; I've never seen diplomacy as a pass/fail system, because if you look at it that way it is far too powerful.&nbsp; I've always treated it as requiring an accumulation of successes in order to obtain anything specific, with each success granting you a little more than the previous one.&nbsp; Not that I like the 4e skill challenge mechanics, but diplomacy is I think uniquely suited to a skill challenge like approach.For a challenge like, &quot;Give me command of the army so that I can attack the orcs at the pass.&quot;, you might get anything from an angier king that you even dared make the suggestion, to you being sent with a reconnaisance force to ascertain the truth of your claims, to the army going to the pass but not you in command of it, to you in command of the army but you given orders not to go to the pass, and perhaps with the greatest success what you have asked for in full.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5083087, member: 4937"] Technically, under the RAW, this should never happen which is the reason there are no explicit rules to cover it. As a practical matter I'd say, "Use more diplomacy." or present some additional evidence. I think you are probably right. I've never seen diplomacy as a pass/fail system, because if you look at it that way it is far too powerful. I've always treated it as requiring an accumulation of successes in order to obtain anything specific, with each success granting you a little more than the previous one. Not that I like the 4e skill challenge mechanics, but diplomacy is I think uniquely suited to a skill challenge like approach. For a challenge like, "Give me command of the army so that I can attack the orcs at the pass.", you might get anything from an angier king that you even dared make the suggestion, to you being sent with a reconnaisance force to ascertain the truth of your claims, to the army going to the pass but not you in command of it, to you in command of the army but you given orders not to go to the pass, and perhaps with the greatest success what you have asked for in full. [/QUOTE]

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