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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vartan" data-source="post: 5083155" data-attributes="member: 26155">I don't think the subject would know that the bluffer could only use the bluff skill: a trained bluffer can match the accomplishments of the trained diplomat but he relies on lies to do so. This has special benefits (the truth doesn't have to be on his side) and risks (if his lies are exposed then he provokes, at best, failure).The bluffer appears to be sincere when he is lying; he is persuasive because of the advantages that come with effective lying. The Diplomat can be effective in social situations without lying, but he loses the advantages that come with being a skilled liar.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If you find the bluffer standing over the body of someone he didn't kill then he could leverage any number of lies to convince you that he isn't the killer. That flexibility carries risk: whether he's guilty or not, an unconvincing lie could seal his fate. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If you find the diplomat standing over the body of someone he didn't kill then he will have only his skills of persuasion--without the benefit of lies--to rely upon, but his failure won't be so spectacular as that of the bluffer.</li> </ol>The failed Diplomacy check might put you in front of a judge, but the failed Bluff check will put you in front of a judge with the weight of your lies around your neck. This speaks to the need for a distinction between the two skills: if you had a "Persuasion" skill which enabled characters to be socially effective regardless of whether or not they tell the truth then player characters could "game" social encounters without regard for the moral or ethical implications of how they succeed at persuasion. To say nothing of the fact that not every good liar is well socialized, and not every well-socialized person is a good liar. I've had to handle this situation before, and my rule of thumb is that if the character making the skill check believes he is telling a lie then he makes a bluff check, but if he believes he is telling the truth then he makes a diplomacy check. CAVEAT: This breaks down in the most nuanced social situations--like asking a Conquistador whether or not he is a murderer when he doesn't think Mayans are human, or asking a Vietcong soldier whether or not he commited torture when he doesn't think that caning is torture. These corner cases turn on the philosophical nature of truth and perception: if your game enters this territory then I think it has left the land of dice rolls and stands firmly on the ground of roleplaying.</blockquote>

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