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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majere" data-source="post: 1477679" data-attributes="member: 13916">"What "immunity to spells below 8th level"? And why should I care how unhittable this guy is, if he also can't hit anything worth a damn?"Glad you actually read my post hong. The monk has a green and lavender Iuan Stone, which absorbes all spells of 8th or lower level.No I dont care if "I" kill crap, as long as the party kills crap Im happy. I help that along in the way best suited to whatever Im playing, be that by healing people or (In the case of my rogue) just by detecting and disarming traps. My rogue is beyond useless in combat, but has a nifty +68 on hiding and +32 on search so he makes a decent scout. I cant remeber any game where "disabling the trap" was as cool as doing 150 damage on a crit, but it still needs doing. "Because you are defining a monk's niche solely in terms of survivability"That is the monks niche, first man in last man out. LOOK AT THE CLASS. It is clearly far more defensive than any other melee class so how can you possibly argue it should be as offensive as well. That is clearly unbalanced, you appear to define the "balance" of a class purely by the damage is can deal, if something deals less damage then something else.. must be unbalanced !?As as I demonstrated the monk can have an almost identical attack routine to the fighter, so he is just as likely to hit as the fighter. There are also feats for such fun shindigs as vorpal fists. Just because the monk I put down didnt bother upping his str doesnt mean I couldnt have increased his damage. However lowering the Ac of the monk is a poor option due to low HP. although, again. There are ways to take from ac and give to hp and I put in the post. If you read my post I suggested ideas that would drop the monks ac to the mid 50's (still 10 points more than the fighter and the fighter can only hit on a 20), while raising the hp to over 200. Maybe you didnt bother to read that ?"What "immunity to spells below 8th level"? And why should I care how unhittable this guy is, if he also can't hit anything worth a damn?"Actually he has the same to hit bonuses and DRbypass as any fighter. He does less damage yes, but he still does a respectable amount. Infact if the creature has a few energy resistances then the monk does about 2/3 to 3/4 of the fighters damage on each hit. And that is a monk who is deliberately with a very low Str. An enlarged half-orc monk with a higher starting Str stat could well be doing damage almost as good as a fighters while enjoying far better speed and defences.  "Did I mention any spells that involve touch AC? Try again, RIFTS boy."One wordHarmYour fighter just lost 75hpThe clerice cant touch the monk except on a natural 20. Not to mention the monk is a far superior fighter against undead or anything with touch attacks. Ray of enfeeblement will make a mess of your fighter, but will only hit me on a natural 20. The list does go on"Why do you persist in using a metric that has no relevance to the issue except for yourself?"Its entirely relevent if you are going to compare classess that I compare classes. Just because you dont have a good counter to my example doesnt make it irrelevent." However, if D&D is going to do this, then the right thing to do, assuming one wants a martial artist-type in the game, is to design the class so that it retains that core theme to it, of being able to hold its own in combat. If this cannot be done, then the class should be dropped, because doing otherwise simply means people are misled as to their intended role in the party."Here you probably have a point.But in fantasy books mages are all powerful, wishes can do anything and so on. You never see a character shout "I wish my friends were alive again.. oh wait thats in a prohibited class for me so I can only replicate 5th level spells not 7th, erm wait a second.. I erm wish they had made their saves.. oh no I cant do that either".D&D moved away from steriotypes quite a while ago. So Im not sure how tightly you can use them to back up any argument. Majere</blockquote>

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