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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 1478002" data-attributes="member: 2629">For those complaining that monks do not hit enough, rememeber to consider that they gain 2 melee advantages in exchange for their reduced AB: Increased attacks (with the best BAB bonus) and increased base damage.Actual 20th level monk (hasted):Natural attacks: +30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+20 (2d10+10 - average 21) plus 1 stun attempt per round. AC: 39Actual 20th level sword and shield fighter (hasted) with full specilization and flaming +5 longsword:Longsword attack: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (d8+d6fire+18 - average 26).AC: 36Using optimal power attack versus an AC of 25 (ignoring critcals for the moment to keep things simple):Monk PAs for 6 - 133.65 damage (plus stun & quivering)Fighter PAs for 8 - 136 damage.When you factor in critical hits, the edge for the fighter increases (assuming a 17-20 crit range for fighter and 19-20 crit range for the monk), but the monk is only slightly behind the highly specialized fighter. If the AC of the enemy increases dramatically, the monk falls farther behind. OTOH, if the AC drops, the monk gets farther ahead. The monk can be plenty effective. I've seen it many times. Beyond the numbers above, you have to figure in that the damage from the monk comes in smaller baskets in more attacks, so that when he drops a foe, he has less overblow (lost damage) and can make greater use out of a feat like great cleave in games with medium hit die foes in high level games.I have REPEATEDLY seen monks shine in combat. Having seen it, I can (with 100% accuracy) say that it can be done under the core rules. Anyone that says that it can not happen can not speak with such authority - failing to see something does not prove that it does not exist. It just says that you have not seen it.To summarize the entire thread:1.) Monks can be as effective as the other melee classes. Many people have yet to see it, but many people have seen it. If people have seen it, it must be possible. If it is impossible in your game, that is a result of the way your game is run.2.) High level spellcasters tend to be more powerful than other classes because DMs tend to make it easy for them to rest and replenish their power reserves, allowing them to run at full power at all times. If they had to ration out their power over time, those spellcasters would end up being less powerful.3.) People hate Hong and Hong hates people.</blockquote>

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