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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 1480318" data-attributes="member: 2629">I used the word actual for a reason. Those were real characters. In this instance, the longsword had a number of other abilities. Of course, the monk didn't even have fire going for it, though it is easy for a monk to get flame damage for his attacks via a ring of spell storing and (heightened) produce flame spells from the druid (or other tactics). And let's not forget the exhalted monk feats ...You get 3 attacks at your best AB. Against these foes, additional spells (prayer, etc ..) would be advised. But, as I mentioned, going after high AC foes is not a strength of the monk. You're entirely correct that it lacks in that department. It makes up for it in its effectiveness against lower AC monsters. I've played in a dozen or so high level campaigns in the past two years. In each of them, ACs above 25 were reserved for powerful BBEGs. Most enemies had a lower AC. Even though the monk was not playing to his strength against those BBEGs, he was still effective.PA is one of the most effective feats for any melee character that can benefit from it (not light weapon folks, but everyone else). Perhaps poor feat choices play a part in your poor perception of monks?Monk is also optimized for defense. This monk did nothing special to improve his defense. I constantly question why he hasn't done the basics to get his AC up into the 40s and play off of the strengths of the monk ... I've never seen a high level monk without PA and cleave. They are very high efficiency feats for any melee character.Here is an example of shine: Our group came into the lair of a BBEG epic priest and his army of minions. The priest dropped a modified mass hold monster spell on the party. The monk and the cleric saved, the rest of the party was held. The monk proceeded to d-door close to the BBEG while the rest of the party was being tended to by the party cleric. The next round, the BBEG turned on the monk, but his spell failed to get through the monk's SR. The monk then proceeded to beat the crap out of the enemy priest for his first 3 attacks and then used his fourth attack at top BAB (he was hasted due to his boots) to quivering palm the enemy priest. The rest of the party had to resort to clean up duty.So don't assume that fact. And at the same time, don't assume a fighter has any weapon he wants at his disposal, don't assume every cleric knows the optimum spells to use and don't assume every druid knows how to get the most bang out of his summoning and animal companion.You've repeatedly said monk's can't compete. I'm telling you I've seen it. If I've seen it, it can be done. It takes *some* effort. It takes *some effort* to be effective in almost any class. You can't put your highest ability scores in charisma, constitution and intelligence and expect to be an effective monk. But, usuing just the basics of strategy and selecting the feats known to be best for melee combat, a monk is a very effective PC. And once again, just to stress the point, in certain styles of games, a monk can not compete. If the DM uses exclusively high AC foes, the monk will be at a disadvantage. If the DM uses exclusviely foes immune to stunning, the monk will be at a disadvantage. If the DM uses monsters that inflict damage if hit with a natural weapon, the monk is at a disadvantage. There are many ways to put monks at a disadvantage. If you happen to play in those games, it isn't a fault of the monk class that makes it weak.</blockquote>

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