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<blockquote data-quote="hong" data-source="post: 1483434" data-attributes="member: 537">I couldn't do it without all my friends. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool&nbsp; &nbsp; :cool:"&nbsp; data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" />&nbsp;&nbsp;It's true, my penis is a very sensitive spot.&nbsp;&nbsp;Sigh.&nbsp;I never said you couldn't have fun with a monk. I said that if you want to treat a monk as a primary combatant in the party, then either you're going to be struggling, or the DM has to tailor stuff to suit. This has never been in dispute. Even your analysis supports this: with optimal PA and compared to a fighter without optimal gear, the monk still does less damage. He'll be a lot more survivable, but that's also never been in dispute.&nbsp;&nbsp; Where on earth did you get that? PA is good if you have a two-handed weapon. Otherwise, it's mediocre. As Geoff said, it's useful as a stepping-stone to Cleave, but I have no idea how you get &quot;most essential melee feat&quot;. It might be _particularly_ useful for a monk (since they usually do crappy damage and so PA is proportionately better for them), but this is not an obvious fact for someone who hasn't crunched the numbers.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is a silly metric. If you want to take down someone as fast as possible, you want to do as much damage to them as you can, and whether you do it in small or big chunks is generally a minor consideration. The only time when &quot;effective&quot; damage is important is when you're next to lots of enemies at once, and they're weak enough that they go down in one or two hits. IOW, you're fighting mooks. And when you're fighting mooks, feats like Cleave, Great Cleave and WWA come into play, not to mention six million boom spells. Furthermore, how likely are you to be in range of 5 or more enemies at once at high levels? That's what you need to take advantage of the monk's multiple attacks.&nbsp;In fact, the mook fight IMC that comes to mind right now is the one where the barb did a x4 crit for 125 points of damage to a hapless 20 hp guy. OVERKILL is what counts for spotlight time, not nickel-and-diming people to death.&nbsp;&nbsp;The fighter/monk combo would indeed be a pretty good way of doing a combatant monk. In this situation, I'd probably amp Str and pick up a two-handed weapon, rather than relying on the measly unarmed damage. It's just a pity that you should have to multiclass to do something as basic as kick butt, and the monk multiclassing restrictions don't help either....</blockquote>

[QUOTE="hong, post: 1483434, member: 537"] I couldn't do it without all my friends. :cool: It's true, my penis is a very sensitive spot. Sigh. I never said you couldn't have fun with a monk. I said that if you want to treat a monk as a primary combatant in the party, then either you're going to be struggling, or the DM has to tailor stuff to suit. This has never been in dispute. Even your analysis supports this: with optimal PA and compared to a fighter without optimal gear, the monk still does less damage. He'll be a lot more survivable, but that's also never been in dispute. Where on earth did you get that? PA is good if you have a two-handed weapon. Otherwise, it's mediocre. As Geoff said, it's useful as a stepping-stone to Cleave, but I have no idea how you get "most essential melee feat". It might be _particularly_ useful for a monk (since they usually do crappy damage and so PA is proportionately better for them), but this is not an obvious fact for someone who hasn't crunched the numbers. This is a silly metric. If you want to take down someone as fast as possible, you want to do as much damage to them as you can, and whether you do it in small or big chunks is generally a minor consideration. The only time when "effective" damage is important is when you're next to lots of enemies at once, and they're weak enough that they go down in one or two hits. IOW, you're fighting mooks. And when you're fighting mooks, feats like Cleave, Great Cleave and WWA come into play, not to mention six million boom spells. Furthermore, how likely are you to be in range of 5 or more enemies at once at high levels? That's what you need to take advantage of the monk's multiple attacks. In fact, the mook fight IMC that comes to mind right now is the one where the barb did a x4 crit for 125 points of damage to a hapless 20 hp guy. OVERKILL is what counts for spotlight time, not nickel-and-diming people to death. The fighter/monk combo would indeed be a pretty good way of doing a combatant monk. In this situation, I'd probably amp Str and pick up a two-handed weapon, rather than relying on the measly unarmed damage. It's just a pity that you should have to multiclass to do something as basic as kick butt, and the monk multiclassing restrictions don't help either.... [/QUOTE]

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