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Issues with the "NPCs" in the MM and HotDQ (SPOILERS!)
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<blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 6406908" data-attributes="member: 1757"><p>Ah, I see. So your concern is simply that monster HD are not used to determine base attack bonus? Because that is literally the only issue you raise here. That has very little to do with the connection between monster and NPC class level and CR.</p><p></p><p>Honestly, I don't know what you're arguing at this point. If you're saying that CR has to be a function of HD then designers of every single edition of D&D seem to disagree. If you're arguing that there has to be HD/CR/level parity then ditto.</p><p></p><p>Look at it this way:</p><p></p><p>1) a 1e vampire MU12 is two levels (monster level X) above a vanilla vampire with no changes in HD or THAC0.</p><p></p><p>2) Ravenloft 2e setting strahd is a creature with 16 levels of necromancer specialist wizard, the THAC0 and attacks of a 10th-level fighter, and 12 Hit Dice (ancient vampire). </p><p></p><p>3) Ravenloft 3e Strahd is a CR 23 vampire Ftr5/Wiz15 with 20 HD.</p><p></p><p>4) Strahd's monster-caster counterpart Vercinabex Tor ("Kings of the Rift" from the Age of Worms AP) is a CR 18 frost giant Sor16 with 30 HD.</p><p></p><p>Oh, and extra fun and games? Strahd as an NPC is considered CR 23, the equivalent of his human Wiz23 buddy. Turn him into a PC and he becomes a 28th-level NPC, the equivalent of a human who somehow needs 5 HD and levels to compete.</p><p></p><p>Honestly, I'm just curious as to what you're getting at here. It would be helpful if you could delve into issues that you think need solving in a defined manner.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ruleslawyer, post: 6406908, member: 1757"] Ah, I see. So your concern is simply that monster HD are not used to determine base attack bonus? Because that is literally the only issue you raise here. That has very little to do with the connection between monster and NPC class level and CR. Honestly, I don't know what you're arguing at this point. If you're saying that CR has to be a function of HD then designers of every single edition of D&D seem to disagree. If you're arguing that there has to be HD/CR/level parity then ditto. Look at it this way: 1) a 1e vampire MU12 is two levels (monster level X) above a vanilla vampire with no changes in HD or THAC0. 2) Ravenloft 2e setting strahd is a creature with 16 levels of necromancer specialist wizard, the THAC0 and attacks of a 10th-level fighter, and 12 Hit Dice (ancient vampire). 3) Ravenloft 3e Strahd is a CR 23 vampire Ftr5/Wiz15 with 20 HD. 4) Strahd's monster-caster counterpart Vercinabex Tor ("Kings of the Rift" from the Age of Worms AP) is a CR 18 frost giant Sor16 with 30 HD. Oh, and extra fun and games? Strahd as an NPC is considered CR 23, the equivalent of his human Wiz23 buddy. Turn him into a PC and he becomes a 28th-level NPC, the equivalent of a human who somehow needs 5 HD and levels to compete. Honestly, I'm just curious as to what you're getting at here. It would be helpful if you could delve into issues that you think need solving in a defined manner. [/QUOTE]
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Issues with the "NPCs" in the MM and HotDQ (SPOILERS!)
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