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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bowbe" data-source="post: 3817413" data-attributes="member: 6328">I guess I just haven't seen a single argument that can convince me that "Save or Die" effects are bad.Punitive to players who make a bad die roll? Yeah... sometimes you get killed because of a "good" die roll on the part of monster, NPC or charmed PC too. Thats the breaks. Expend some loot and get raised/ressurrected just like every other character who had a bad break since the 1970's. Anyone remember having 78 hp and dying from the 2nd dragon breath for 88 hp even tho you made your saves against both breaths? Again, thats the breaks. Sometimes the PCs wipe the floor with the BBG. The BBG gets caught monologing and falls victim to a bad initiative roll and wap. Dead before he even finishes his "reason for being". Oh well. It works both ways. Does it make the game such? I guess that depends on who is running your game folks, not on the "rules" having had it wrong for so many years. Considering we are talking about the most popular RPG of all time thats a lot of years of horrible games where NOBODY had a good time thanks to Save or Die, Poison, being turned to stone, or polymorphed into a bullywug. Why does the game suddenly HAVE to revolve around making sure nobody dies except the "enemy"?Does a game where your characters aren't ever really threatened and can't be killed instantly with magic, a critical hit or some other gaff make it a bad game? If dying suddenly makes for a bad game, I feel bad for all the people who've enjoyed playing Call of Cthulhu for all these years. Evidently CoC is a horrible game too. If dying suddenly is so wrong for the game why do so many people clamor for a decent "called shot rule" every edition? They want the called shot for their characters no doubt but not for the DM. Wizard doesn't need the party option? What? If the wizard wipes the floor of an opponent that could have killed EVERYONE with a single spell... go wizard! Everyone gets a share of the xps anyhow. I'm with aloisious. I've seen raged dwarf barbarians top out with 300+ HP while raged and con'ed up that can ONLY be taken down with insta kill type attacks from critters Well beyond their supposed challenge rating. There is nothing wrong with them having 300 hp "by the rules" so why is there something wrong with them having to make a save vs. an effect that can actually drop them out of the fight every so often?People bring up good points here. If there is no save or die, then where goes sleep? Where goes charm? Where goes paralysis or domination? All of those are certainly part of the game I play. Evidently they are not part of the game everyone else is playing. Oh well. Too early to know just yet what these rules will look like other than these blogs and webcasts everyone is freaking out about (i guess including me). To be honest I would almost prefer NOT knowing any of these "hints and previews" until the rules are actually DONE and printed. All this speculation is giving me gas.Case</blockquote>

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