items that allow you to spend healing surges

[CapnZapp]

I'm not sure what to think here.

On one hand, there aren't any true healing potions anymore. The ones that exist return modest amounts of hit points only.

On the other, there's things like the Robe of Contingency (AV, page 49). That item is rather easily available to most - everyone have Cloth proficiency and the +1 version is only 4th level. (Yes, it only works when you're bloodied. However, as we shall see, that isn't necessarily a bad thing).

Now, I'm not primarily thinking of player characters here. They already have easy access to their healing surges. But monsters don't have Second Wind. And generally no healing powers either.


Now, if I were a Solo monster, I'd desire this Robe more than anything. I might have a thousand hit points, and for the paltry cost of 840 gp I can get access to a daily power that restores 250 hit points!

Compare this to the potions; where I need to spend twenty-five rounds downing Potions of Healing or fork out a painful 125,000 gold for five Potions of Recovery!

In Third Edition, I could create a scene where the heroes battle the BBEG, and when they press him hard enough, bloodying him, he runs away into another room, bolting the door behind him.

When the PCs finally break down the door, he can be seen downing the last of a true potion of healing, restoring plenty of hit points.


In Fourth Edition, the general impression is that I "shouldn't" do that. This, however, leads me back to the Robe of Contingency. With this robe, this is exactly what I can accomplish.

Now then, can you see any good reason why I can't create an Elixir* of Healing? Something like this:
Elixir of Healing
Power (Daily ✦ Healing): Standard Action. Drink this potion when you are bloodied. You can spend a healing surge.
Special: Consuming this elixir counts as a use of a magic item daily power.

*) not Potion - we need a 1/day limit in case this ever falls into the hands of the player characters.

This would be much more thematic. It wouldn't use the armor slot, but it gets old very fast if all my VIP BBEG has the same kind of robe. Besides, as I said, an item like this is much more valuable for a NPC than for a PC. Especially if it's elite or a solo.

The difference between this item and merely relying on the rules for healing surges is that I wouldn't be forced into orchestrating a short rest between the first encounter with the monster and the second one. Little else changes.

 

[Artoomis]

Just give it to your BBG as a one-use item(wondrous). On the off-chance the PCs get it, it's still a one-use item that is not otherwise available.

For even more fun, make the bottle itself be a "flash-bang" explosive. When the open the door, they just get a glimpse of the BBG downing the last drop of liquid and he throws the bottle at them. A loud bang, a flash with lots of smoke, and he ducks out the back (secret) door in the confusion (and with concealment from the smoke).

Cut to lengthy chase scene wherin the heroes ultimately win, of course. Or maybe the BBG gets away to harass them more off and on throughout there adventuring careers.

Well, that was fun. The elixer that refills itself once per day is maybe better if you want this sort of thing to be generally available for your BBGs.

 

[Jhaelen]

On one hand, there aren't any true healing potions anymore. The ones that exist return modest amounts of hit points only.

What's a 'true healing potion'? In D&D healing potions never returned more than modest amounts og hit points.

Now, if I were a Solo monster, I'd desire this Robe more than anything. I might have a thousand hit points, and for the paltry cost of 840 gp I can get access to a daily power that restores 250 hit points!

Generally, 4E assumes that monsters don't use magic items. Healing powers are exceptionally rare for monsters. This is a design choice.

In Third Edition, I could create a scene where the heroes battle the BBEG, and when they press him hard enough, bloodying him, he runs away into another room, bolting the door behind him.

When the PCs finally break down the door, he can be seen downing the last of a true potion of healing, restoring plenty of hit points.

And in 4E it's even easier. You can do this without having to play by rules pcs have to obey. Your BBEG can have a thingamajick or a power that will allow her to do anything you like.

In Fourth Edition, the general impression is that I "shouldn't" do that.

That would be a wrong impression. As I mnetioned before, healing powers are exceptionally rare among run-of-the-mill monsters. But if you'd like to create a recurring villain, they're a good fit.

I wouldn't bother statting out a new magic item for this, though. In the unlikely event that the pcs kill the villain before he can use his thingamagick/power/get away, they'll either find nothing or a level-appropriate potion.

 

[Runestar]

I think part of the reason why monsters were not given second wind (save for a few exceptions) is that it simply delays the inevitable. You spend a standard action to have it regain some hp, but that standard action means it cannot attack (save for 1-2 swift action powers), so its turn is effectively wasted. The next turn, the party focus fires on it, and probably deals enough damage to negate the hp you healed. So you have accomplished effectively nothing. It is the same logic behind why in-combat healing was deemed so inefficient in 3e.

Maybe it has already been factored into their hp. But unless you can find a way of activating your healing surge as a swift action, it generally seems like a waste of time.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Or you can just give your BBEG a potion of recovery, unless he has 200+ hit points it will be the same thing, or better. Even if he's above that it will be a fair boost to his hit points. For higher level BBEGs just add in a Second Wind. Not that there is anything wrong with your solution, it works fine too.

I'm not really sure what you mean by 'there are no true healing potions' either. At low levels gaining 10hp is usually more than the character's surge value. Even at higher levels healing potions have numerous advantages, the main one being they are cheap and if you have a pc with the brew potion ritual they can make one for 50gp at 5th level.

I'm not sure why people constantly assert that PCs have easy access to healing. They have SOME access. Even assuming a party has a Paladin and a Cleric in the party that basically gives access to roughly one surge per character per encounter, plus their second wind. In a really tough encounter that may well not be enough, and having 1 or 2 healing potions, especially if you are a fighter, is a huge advantage. By 10th level the 10hp per potion does start to get a bit weak, but then you're going to start to be able to find 15th level items, including potions of vitality at that point, which again are going to be pretty good and at 15th level you can brew those as well. 1000gp cost per potion at 15th level is not really a huge cost. Pretty much the same thing when you hit 20th level you can start to find potions of recovery, and at 25th level you can brew them, and again at that point 25,000gp is not an unsupportable cost factor.

Certainly for low level characters I would say potions of healing are practically a vital necessity and whether or not you consider it 'true healing' or not, healing it is!

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry, my post was a bit of a confused mess. I have several lines of thought - let me give it another stab...:

First off, the item I'm giving to the BBEG can well be a consumable, a one use item. I really don't need it to be permanent.

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However, I can't just make it a potion for the following reason: I appreciate consistency in my campaign, and if the PCs see an item, it isn't unreasonable for them to want to acquire such items for themselves later on; manufacturing them with the Create Magic Item ritual if need be.

If I make it a potion specifically, i.e. an item whose only cost is a healing surge, this item becomes vastly more powerful in the hands of the PC than it could ever be in the hands of any single monster.

Not because the item in itself is more powerful, but because a PC can use a whole string of them, back to back. Player characters have plenty of healing surges after all. This would be bad for the game, as it would essentially render the services of the leader (healing powers) irrelevant.

And then there's price. Such a potion needs a market price that is in the stratosphere, not only to limit availability, but to not completely overshadow the existing potions.

Right now, my players are at low level, and then the problem is such a potion will be severely over-priced and still do little more than the 10 hp a standard Potion of Healing gives you. At epic levels, assuming PCs routinely have 200 hp or more, the benefit from a healing surge equals that of a Potion of Recovery. And still, for an Ancient Red Dragon, this new potion would be infinitely more valuable than a mere Potion of Recovery (giving it back almost 350 hp).

So I fully understand why the designers didn't add potions whose effect varied with your healing surge value. That simply doesn't make sense considering the 4E paradigm.

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So what is the difference between this power being given in potion form and being given in cloth armor form? In the former, it could cost 25,000 gold and still be unbalanced (for Solo monsters). In the latter form, the designers have evidently concluded, you can practically get it for free (the +1 Robe of Contingency costs a mere 840 gp).

It must be that you can only use the power once a day. (Feel free to come up with arguments why this, my central assumption, is flawed! I do not think the item slot restriction or the "you need to be bloodied" are very important, for instance)

So what I want is a potion-ish item, but one with the additional restriction you can only use the power once a day (regardless of how many actual flasks or bottles you've got).

Now. I immediately agree this normally is telling you the item should be a permanent magic item. The point of a consumable is that it should work everytime you consume one.

So I could make it a "Decanter of True Vitality" or something, which once a day is filled with a liquid that contains the power.

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But I'm still not satisfied. I believe this power is visually and thematically best realized as a potion, simple as that.

So can't I simply "re-skin" the Decanter into a potion (or elixir or "Other Consumable" as I guess AV is teaching me the correct category would be)?

As a (true) Potion, this power would cost 25,000 gold, absolute minimum.

As a Robe, it can cost as little as 840 gold - and almost half of that sum (360 gp) is because of the +1 AC thing. So really the power is thrown away nearly for free, costing 480 gp. And still, for that you get a free reaction teleport thrown in too! So let's say the "spend a healing surge" part of the Rob is half of that, or 240 gp. That's a ridiculously low cost if you think about it.

What it's telling me is that you are probably right: I can simply give the ability to any of my BBEGs without a second thought (for monetary balance - obviously it makes that BBEG very much stronger).

Remember, my primary concern is that by making it into an item (and not simply giving the BBEG a Second Wind power) it becomes (at least in theory) accessible to the player characters (through item creation, most likely). And thus I need it to be balanced and not over-powered.

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So, let's finish this thing. Let's complete the design of the item, so we can agree on a reasonable cost. Existing items don't really help us out here (it's either 240 or 25,000+ that's suggested; and I think we can agree it's reasonable to go somewhere in the middle).

Draught of True Vitality
Other consumable 5,000 gp
Power (Consumable ✦ Healing): Standard Action. Drink this potion when you are bloodied. You can spend a healing surge.
Special: Consuming more than one Draught of True Vitality before taking an Extended Rest has no benefits or effects.

How about the price? The price should be high enough to signify it's not an item meant for newcomers. But I don't want a price so high I can't use the item at Heroic Tier (both because the BBEG then can't afford it, and because it would wreck the economy if my adventurers could get their hands on one before the BBEG has time to use it).

So I arbitrarily set it to five grand. 2,500 is one zero more than the robe (240 gp) and one zero less than the potion (25,000+). And then I doubled that for good measure, arriving at 5,000 gp. What do you think?


PS. Perhaps the moderators can move this thread into House Rules? Thanks muchly.

 

[CapnZapp]

I should probably add that I thought about making the item power grant you the use of the Second Wind action.

However, that would make the item a decidedly monster-only item, which I find less fun and probably in violation of 4E design principles.

Even if the potion allows you to take the SW as a free action (meaning you're spending a total of one minor action to drink the potion and possibly another to pick it out of your belt or backpack if your GM runs with that interpretation) it's still a much more valuable item to monsters than player characters (especially Dwarfs).

So that's why I'm keeping to the Healing Surge thing. That, and that I don't need to give my Solos another +2 to defenses...

Even if a level 10 Solo only has one Healing Surge a day, the prospect of these items ever finding their way into the hands of the adventurers forces me to add a specific "once a day" restriction to the item.

Still the item might be over-powered. How valuable is getting essentially a second Second Wind each day?

Pretty valuable, I grant you that. But is it overpowering?

I'm hoping Paragon and Epic adventurers have several ways to spend surges in combat, and thus that this item won't be a must-have item there.

For Heroic PCs, of course the item is very valuable. But there the cost of 5,000 isn't insignificant, I hope. While still not so high that the urge to simply sell it (for 1,000 gold) becomes irresistible.


Again, your input would be most appreciated!