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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7773843" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Mind you, that was before the first D&D booklet even saw print. </p><p> My feeling is that the hobby varied regionally a lot more in the early & fad years than it does now. Consequence of the internet, I suppose. But, yes, in my left-coast environment, the hobby seemed very accepting, though, of course, also very nerdy (and not a lot of folks were all that accepting of nerds). <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> It has also always seemed that way, to me, by it's very nature. Roleplaying lets you put yourself in very different shoes, that's one reason the non-TTRPG sense has so often been used in therapy, so it's a hobby that develops open-mindedness in the enthusiast. It was also, again, a very nerdy hobby, played by people who were escaping their own experiences of persecution (bullying, ostracism, whatever), so you'd (I'd) have thought, would not want to turn around and inflict the same on anyone else. </p><p>(Now, I know - old & cynical, remember - that's not how it works out, that being on the receiving end often makes you that much more likely to dish it out, yourself. But that was how I felt for a long time, and the evidence I've seen to the contrary has been a more recent development.) </p><p></p><p>A 1978 survey would have been before the fad really took off, and a lot has happened in the 40 years since. The 'Girl Gamer' phenom started late in the 90s, particularly via the LARP side of the hobby, and the Storyteller/oWoD RPGs that were the major challenger of D&D at the time. It hadn't exactly been a non-existent trend before that, and it's continued since. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> IDK, I've been involved in AL, it's not that different from Encounters, and, while Encounters was noticeably different from the RPGA that preceded it, in that it was much more accessible to new players, that goes back to 2010, and wasn't enough to touch off a resurgence (at least, not in the face of other challenges at the time, and no TT resurgence started yet)</p><p></p><p>But there's certainly been a deliberate attempt to reach new audiences throughout WotC's tenure (or at least Hasbro's - because GROWTH!$!), that's included attempts to change the attendant culture. 3.x/PF empowered players who acquired system mastery, and might have been coming to the RPGs from the CCG side of TT gaming, which was a radical change from the TSR versions of the game that kept empowerment behind the DM Screen. 4e was calculated to appeal to an audience that was most likely exposed to the idea of RPGs through CRPG and MMORPG sources (whether playing them or just exposure to them), and to be generally more accessible to new players - at the price of badly alienating some of the existing ones. </p><p></p><p> D&D today is just not that different from D&D then. Not in how it's played or what it's goals are. The tools used and the people playing it have evolved and become more diverse, because the mainstream society has. Technology has been embraced for a long time, D&D has been laggard in that, now it's catching up. Diversity has been being driven in our society for decades, D&D (well, IMX, has always been part of that) apparently, in yours and others' experiences and areas, has finally caught up with that, at least, officially - a recent adventure featured an off-hand reference to a married pair of men, something mainstream network television did 10 years before.</p><p></p><p> Prettymuch nonsense. I mean, that happened, but it didn't happen to D&D in the last few years, it happened to the hobby in the 90s. When D&D has tried to embrace that sort of thing, it's suffered backlashes. </p><p></p><p>5e really walked a tightrope, in that it /is/, mechanically, exactly the kind of game fans of the TSR era want, expect, and are comfortable with: it's DM Empowering, DM-dependent, DM centric... it's all 'bout the DM, is what I'm saying. If I'm running 1e AD&D or 5e, the experience the players get is all on me. The system gets them to the table, but I'm free to run off and do whatever I want with it - because the alternative, playing strictly by the rules, simply doesn't work. </p><p>If I'm running 3.5/PF (not likely, too much effort for too little reward, IMX), or 4e, the experience is more heavily shaped by the game /and the players/.</p><p></p><p>So where I find fault with what you're saying is characterizing it as this new thing. It's not, it's a return to an old thing. A resurgence.</p><p></p><p>And, while were talking resurgence, D&D is not experiencing it's resurgence in a vacuum. It's part of a broader tabletop resurgence that got rolling a year or two before 5e got it's legs under it. 5e is more a passenger than a driver in this trend.</p><p></p><p> That's a nice spin, but there's not really any focus on story built into 5e or its presentation - not any more than any other edition. 5e's not remotely storyteller or FATE or any of the myriad indie games that really /do/ focus on story.</p><p></p><p>D&Ds mechanics aren't remotely lite, they're just not something you can safely count on to work for you - you need the DM to keep it running smoothly. A DM can leverage that to make story a centerpiece of the experience - and players can angle to get most resolution /away/ from the dysfunctional areas of the mechanics.</p><p></p><p> Yeah, that's mostly fallen away with 5e. 5e caters reasonably well to the old-school style. The TSR-era grognards do grouse about 5e, a little, still, and they groused about 3.x, too. But the gaping divide, the launch of the OSR movement, and the edition war all coincided with 4e, not 5e. </p><p></p><p>5e's success is not built on pushing back against the old school elements, but, if not embracing, at least mollifying them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7773843, member: 996"] Mind you, that was before the first D&D booklet even saw print. My feeling is that the hobby varied regionally a lot more in the early & fad years than it does now. Consequence of the internet, I suppose. But, yes, in my left-coast environment, the hobby seemed very accepting, though, of course, also very nerdy (and not a lot of folks were all that accepting of nerds). ;) It has also always seemed that way, to me, by it's very nature. Roleplaying lets you put yourself in very different shoes, that's one reason the non-TTRPG sense has so often been used in therapy, so it's a hobby that develops open-mindedness in the enthusiast. It was also, again, a very nerdy hobby, played by people who were escaping their own experiences of persecution (bullying, ostracism, whatever), so you'd (I'd) have thought, would not want to turn around and inflict the same on anyone else. (Now, I know - old & cynical, remember - that's not how it works out, that being on the receiving end often makes you that much more likely to dish it out, yourself. But that was how I felt for a long time, and the evidence I've seen to the contrary has been a more recent development.) A 1978 survey would have been before the fad really took off, and a lot has happened in the 40 years since. The 'Girl Gamer' phenom started late in the 90s, particularly via the LARP side of the hobby, and the Storyteller/oWoD RPGs that were the major challenger of D&D at the time. It hadn't exactly been a non-existent trend before that, and it's continued since. IDK, I've been involved in AL, it's not that different from Encounters, and, while Encounters was noticeably different from the RPGA that preceded it, in that it was much more accessible to new players, that goes back to 2010, and wasn't enough to touch off a resurgence (at least, not in the face of other challenges at the time, and no TT resurgence started yet) But there's certainly been a deliberate attempt to reach new audiences throughout WotC's tenure (or at least Hasbro's - because GROWTH!$!), that's included attempts to change the attendant culture. 3.x/PF empowered players who acquired system mastery, and might have been coming to the RPGs from the CCG side of TT gaming, which was a radical change from the TSR versions of the game that kept empowerment behind the DM Screen. 4e was calculated to appeal to an audience that was most likely exposed to the idea of RPGs through CRPG and MMORPG sources (whether playing them or just exposure to them), and to be generally more accessible to new players - at the price of badly alienating some of the existing ones. D&D today is just not that different from D&D then. Not in how it's played or what it's goals are. The tools used and the people playing it have evolved and become more diverse, because the mainstream society has. Technology has been embraced for a long time, D&D has been laggard in that, now it's catching up. Diversity has been being driven in our society for decades, D&D (well, IMX, has always been part of that) apparently, in yours and others' experiences and areas, has finally caught up with that, at least, officially - a recent adventure featured an off-hand reference to a married pair of men, something mainstream network television did 10 years before. Prettymuch nonsense. I mean, that happened, but it didn't happen to D&D in the last few years, it happened to the hobby in the 90s. When D&D has tried to embrace that sort of thing, it's suffered backlashes. 5e really walked a tightrope, in that it /is/, mechanically, exactly the kind of game fans of the TSR era want, expect, and are comfortable with: it's DM Empowering, DM-dependent, DM centric... it's all 'bout the DM, is what I'm saying. If I'm running 1e AD&D or 5e, the experience the players get is all on me. The system gets them to the table, but I'm free to run off and do whatever I want with it - because the alternative, playing strictly by the rules, simply doesn't work. If I'm running 3.5/PF (not likely, too much effort for too little reward, IMX), or 4e, the experience is more heavily shaped by the game /and the players/. So where I find fault with what you're saying is characterizing it as this new thing. It's not, it's a return to an old thing. A resurgence. And, while were talking resurgence, D&D is not experiencing it's resurgence in a vacuum. It's part of a broader tabletop resurgence that got rolling a year or two before 5e got it's legs under it. 5e is more a passenger than a driver in this trend. That's a nice spin, but there's not really any focus on story built into 5e or its presentation - not any more than any other edition. 5e's not remotely storyteller or FATE or any of the myriad indie games that really /do/ focus on story. D&Ds mechanics aren't remotely lite, they're just not something you can safely count on to work for you - you need the DM to keep it running smoothly. A DM can leverage that to make story a centerpiece of the experience - and players can angle to get most resolution /away/ from the dysfunctional areas of the mechanics. Yeah, that's mostly fallen away with 5e. 5e caters reasonably well to the old-school style. The TSR-era grognards do grouse about 5e, a little, still, and they groused about 3.x, too. But the gaping divide, the launch of the OSR movement, and the edition war all coincided with 4e, not 5e. 5e's success is not built on pushing back against the old school elements, but, if not embracing, at least mollifying them. [/QUOTE]
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