It's all in the way you run it.

[Uller]

A while back, the guy I share DM responsibilities with in our group (we take turns running two seperate campaigns) had a long arguement about the rules for social skills and even ability scores like Wisdom and Charisma. The origin of the arguement was that I wanted to include spells like Owl's Wisdom and Eagle's Splendor in our game.

His point was that spells like that (and the fact they can affect skills like diplomacy, bluff and sense motive) turns role-playing into "roll-playing". He said things like: Back in 2e, AD&D and even OD&D the DM and the players could have converstations and role-play out these situations. In 3e, the player could say something like "I want to find out if there are any rumors about X" and the DM could just roll a Gather Information check and tell him the results and that would be completely "by-the-book 3e D&D". He went on to say that 3e is just wargaming rules packaged as an RPG (funny...sometimes his games turn into full-fledged wargames...).

My point was that it is all in how the group wants to play it. Now we have rules where spells and skills of the _character_ can have an effect on role-play situations and that's a GOOD thing. It is fun (to me) that a character can use a spell like Eagle's splendor to subtley affect the outcome of a RP situation. Whether the DM just rolls the dice to determine the outcome or plays it out (or some combination of the two) is entirely up to the DM and the players. The DM just rolling a GI check for some inconsequential thing to keep the game moving or role-plays it out is no different than the DM just rolling a Search check when a rogue wants to search for traps and saying "You don't find anything" and moving on or going into intricately detailed descriptions of how the search is performed and what the rogue finds. It's all up to the DM and how much the players want to participate.

I think I have the case and point with the encounter we are currently playing out in my PBeM game. Two of the players wanted to go into town to find out if any bounty hunters have expressed interest in a bounty the local merchant's guild has put out on a beast that is ravaging an important trade route. The PCs want to know if they have any potential competition or allies in fighting this creature. Now...this could, by the rules, simply be resolved by me rolling a gather information check and saying "You find out X". I decided that this is a) worth spending some story time on and b) a chance to introduce a couple of interesting NPCs that might help the party...

So I rolled the GI check. They succeeded. Rather than just say: You find X, I decided the result means they found the people who know the information they are looking for and they will be willing to talk to them if the PCs play their cards right.

So now I am running a full-fledged RP encounter in the merchants guild. They've met four different NPCs, found some of the information they needed and now the NPCs that might be able to help them (and want the PCs' help) are trying to talk the PCs into joining forces. Since it is PBeM, everything is typed. We've had three pages of typed RP and there is still much to be done in this encounter. I've rolled a GI check, two diplomacy checks, two sense motive checks and a spot check. So we're role-playing AND the skills and ability scores of the PCs are affecting the outcome of the encounter the same way their sword and spell slinging abilities affect the outcome of a battle...It's all good IMO...

D&D 3e is just a wargame packaged as an RPG: Bull.

 

[Uller]

Here is the encounter as it has played out so far:
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Rand and Jordian (and anyone else who wants to) go to the Merchant's Guild.

The Merchant's Guild hall sits at the northern end of the market square in the city. It is a long, low building (very few buildings in the city are more than one story tall) made from heavy timbers of wood. It runs perhaps 80' east to west and 40' north to south. Its gabled roof is thatched straw and mud (like most buildings in the city) with a peak about 20' high. There are three sets of double doors along the southern wall.

You arrive late in the afternoon. The doors are all open as local business men move in and out of the building on various errands. The guild hall is a place to make contacts, negotiate deals, build alliances, apply for franchise rights, make claims for grievances and so forth.

Once inside the hall, you see it is mostly one large (poorly lit) room. It is very dusty and smoky. A fire burns in the center of the room. There is a hole in the roof to allow the smoke to escape (as you can imagine, this is only marginally effective). Great pillars support the roof. They have carvings that reflect various aspects of commerce (bushels of grain, workers and miners at work, etc). You notice several birds building nests in the roof and even an alley cat or two hunting in the rafters.

At the east end there is an open doorway that appears to lead to a set of offices and/or storerooms. Part of this wall appears to be a public bulletin board. There are several pieces of paper tacked to it. The west end is a shrine to Talis, god of luck and good fortune, the patron deity of the Guild (every guild has a patron and guild members are required to make regular sacrifices to it).

There are several large rectangular tables (maybe 4' X 10') with benches on each side throughout the place. At the time you enter there are perhaps 25 people in the place. Every merchant in Helkris (and the surrounding villages) is required to belong to the guild and pay dues (10% of total revenue). In exchange the guild provides franchise licenses, contract enforcement and even protection from bandits and such. So the people here range from common street peddlers (the majority) to wealthy traders from far off lands (only one or two of these are here right now).

Many people are having conversations (making business deals and discussing news from afar and local politics). At one table there is an older man, richly dressed, with a stack of papers and a strong metal chest. Standing next to him are two younger men, each wears studded leather armor and a large round wooden shield, holds a spear and has a short sword strapped to his hip. On their chest is the symbol of the Helkris constabulary. An older man (similarly dressed, but equipped with a broadsword) sits at a nearby table by himself. He eyes you with suspicion as you enter.

Occasionally a vistor comes up to the richly dressed man and plunks down several coins. The man then makes a notation in his stack of papers and puts the coins in the chest. The key to the chest is on a chain around his neck.

Among the people in the hall, you see a young trader you recognize. His name is Rensy and he normally carries goods up the Storm King Pass to the villages there. He is talking with some other traders who you don't recognize, foreigners by the looks of them (they are taller than people around here with darker skin and flatter faces). He looks worried and as you get within earshot you hear him say "...not with the way things are in the pass. I'd rather deal with bandits in Sarandor than this beast everyone is talking about."

Rand: Hello Rensy, I am Rand. I have heard that you might know the latest news on what's being done to fix the problem in Storm King Pass.

Rensy is a short man with short cropped dark hair. His clothes are well worn fur lined linen and heavy boots commonly worn by travellers and traders. He's about 20 years old. His two ompanions are much much taller (probably 6') with darker almost copper skin and long straight black hair and flatter faces. You're not sure where they come from, but it is not too strange to see travelers from far away lands in Helkris...usually sailors. Their dress is lighter. Thin cloth tunics that leave their arms and lower legs bare. They're accents are very heavy.

Rensy looks annoyed at Rand for bothering him. "I don't know where you heard _that_, friend." At that point he notices Jordain approaching <DM rolls> Rensy suddenly becomes much friendlier. "Hullo, Jordain. Still peddling wares down on Pier Street?"

He motions to the two foriegners. "This is Kyrric and Palthar. (you notice Kyrric has intricate scars on his left forearm.) They're traders from the northern marches of Zarkaria." (Zarkaria is a desert waste in the distant south...its people were notorious sorcerers and demon worshippers in the distant past. Now it is uninhabitable. The grasslands north of the desert are populated by people such as Kyrric and Palthar who stand before you...descendants of Zarkarians and they're many slaves). "They're passing through so I..." at that point Kyrric cuts off Rensy.

"Greetings. Rensy, we really should be going. Our goods aren't going to move themselves. Who is it that grants us the license to move through these lands?"

Rensy looks sheepish for a moment as if realizing he did something wrong and points to the man collecting dues "He'll take care of it." Kyrric and Palthar nod, thank Rensy and begin to move off.

Rand, you got the feeling that Kyrric was uncomfortable with Rensy talking about them, that's why he interrupted him. That probably isn't too far out of the ordinary. If they are moving something
valuable through Helkris, they probably don't want too many people to be aware of it just for safety's sake.

Rand: It was good to meet you Kyrric. I wish you good fortune, but do beware of Storm King Pass.

Kyrric stops short and turns back around to talk to you. "Thank you for the warning. Rensy was just telling us that there are problems there. Do you know anything about it?"

Rand: Yes, I have heard a few things. I was hopeing to learn if anyone is attempting to restore the pass.

Rensy: "Well, as I was just telling Kyrric, word has it that there is some wolf-beast ravaging the upper villages. That's one of my trading routes, but I'm not going up there now. I'm here looking to see if there are any other trade routes available until this blows over. Hell...maybe I'll find something more perminent. Those routes have been drying up over the last few years anyway." (He's referring to the plague that is ravaging the Horse Plains to the west of the pass).

"The Guild has put out a bounty of 500 gold on the creature. Even for that small fortune, I don't think anyone has taken them up on it yet. I know Captain Nelkin took a bunch of troops up there to try to calm things down. I heard he even rescued a few refugees a few days back, but no one has heard much else since then."

Kyrric to Rand and Jordain: "What have you heard? Anything more? We need more than wild rumors."

Rand: Ah, yes. So you haven't heard the story of 'The Folly at Storm King Pass'. No, well I have it on good authority that a small band of adventures recently returned from the region, possibly the refugees that Rensy mentioned. Their tale is most disturbing and sad. If I were a bard I could
recount the saga of the five courageous fools who thought they had the might to brave the wilds. Hum, was it five or six? No matter, since I am not a storyteller, and you don't want to listen to me all day trying to recount the adventure, I will give you the most important facts. First the local
tribe's people are returning to the "old ways", rallying upon the legend of the black dog. There leader is shaman of unknown power, and they are allying with goblins. The black dog is some sort of phantom monster, seemingly impossible to destroy. No man is safe now in Storm King Pass, and perhaps it will never be safe again. I guess we can only hope someone
attempts the bounty, and if the gods are smiling, they might just be lucky.

Palthar looks worried. He says something to Kyrric in their own language. Kyrric cuts him off and seems to berate him. Judging from his body language he seems to be saying something like "Don't worry. We can deal with this."

Kyrric: "Rand, how do you know this? I have no time for rumors and wild tales. Palthar and I must make our way through the pass or find ship that will take us to a port west of the mountans. Once we finish here, we were going to go try to hire a guide and some mercenaries to help get us through the pass.

"How did you hear about these 'adventurers'? Where are they now? I'd very much like to talk to them."

Rensy: "Sergeant Jalpin might know more about whether or not anyone has inquired about the bounty. Of course most bounty hunters are pretty discreet...even the people offering the bounty don't usually know who is seeking to capture it."

Jordain you notice a young man (more like a boy...about 14) lingering as he walks past you as if he might be listening to your conversation.

Rand to Kyrric: "I spoke with several of the adventurers just yesterday. They wish for the time being to remain anonymous. They fear that even here agents of the shaman may try to reach them. I have been given their trust, and I do not intend to violate it. Part of my profession is the acquisition of knowledge and information. That which I have told you is true. I believe that the price you would pay to cross the pass would be far too great. I do not know the urgency of your mission, but take the time to choose your path wisely."

Palthar steps forward, raising himself up as if to lash out at you. You didn't realize how large he was until now. He is very tall and appears very strong. You can hear in his voice that he is on the egde of a rage: "You will take us to these 'adventurers' or I will..."

Before anyone can react, Kyrric holds up a hand to Palthar: "You will be quiet, little brother*, if you know what is good for you." At this point, you notice that almost everyone in the hall has turned to look at you and see what the disturbance is all about. But once
Kyrric speaks a calm spreads over you and everyone who hears his words. His presence in the room suddenly seems very reassuring and peaceful. You hear whispering voices all around you. You can't make out what they are saying, but they seem very serene. For just a
moment everything is still. No one seems to move or even breath. You can hear the sound of your own heart beating very slowly. Then, in an instant, everything goes back to normal. Everyone is back to talking and doing what they were doing and paying no heed to you. You're not sure if what you just experienced was real or not. A strange look comes over Palthar, as if his eye's are locked on some far away object. He steps back and relaxes. "Yes...you are right.
I am sorry..."

Kyrric turns to you: "My apologies. What my brother was trying to say is it is very important that we get through the pass within the next week or so. We would be most interested in meeting these adventurers you speak of. If they know the pass well and would be willing to serve as guides, we would be willing to pay them well. Are they currently in Helkris? Could you arrange a meeting?"

At this point, Rensy looks completely freaked out. "I just remembered, I have a thing I need to check on over at...I..I'll see you around, Jordain." He turns to go, trips over his own feet and
makes a quick exit.

*It is ironic for Kyrric to refer to Palthar as 'little brother' because Palthar is several inches taller and about 75 pounds heavier than Kyrric.
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[Henry]

I may have missed it, but what was the reaction of the other DM when this played out? Was he more favorable, or did it not sway his opinion at all?

 

[Uller]

I may have missed it, but what was the reaction of the other DM when this played out? Was he more favorable, or did it not sway his opinion at all?

He's not involved in this encounter so he's sort of sitting on the sidelines (probably wishing I'd just have rolled for the results and be done with it )

I plan on bringing it up after the encounter is done, but I don't want to seem too smug about it...although he and I enjoy arguing with each other. It is sort of a hobby of ours. I'm guessing he'll say something like "Yeah, but if someone used Eagle's Splendor to affect the outcome, that'd not be role-playing..." That was his original point...using ability enhancing spells and magic items to affect the outcome of RP encounters is not creative use of spells (but using Suggestion is, I guess). It is just turning RP into another kind of combat.

 

[Shallown]

I run my game Much like yours Uller. I use the rolls and skills to move the game through the low/minial points. Also how do you roll play when a player wants to know something very general. I have players often go into town to get a feel for how effective the constables are or How the people are doing (in the sense of community happiness level) Etc. Do I play out 10-15 encounters or make a general roll. Often if the roll is at one or the other end of the spectrum I'll throw in a quick role play encounter giving the information first hand.

As I have always said the Rules are a tool. Use them in the best mannerfor the most enjoyment. I enjoy running NPC's such as shop keeps and my players love it as well but I am notplaying out every person they say hello to either.

Later

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I agree with both of you. On the one hand I do miss how the earlier editions relied more on character concept that rolling for everything. No class has any standards anymore so you can't assume anything with any PC's. As an example IMC our cleric player had to bow out... no big deal I think, we have a Rogue in the party so I'll just have the party find a Wand of Cure Light Wounds in the next encounter and we can press on. WRONG!!!! This particular Rogue has an 8 in Charisma and only 1 rank in Use Magic Device. He'd have to roll a natural 20 to activate the wand. Having abilities too clearly defined is a BAD thing IMHO.
On the other hand if you are going to use 3E rules you have to take the Total Skill levels into account because they define how good someone is at something. I ask my players to role-play out whatever it is they want to do but then I ask them to roll to determine the degree of success or if they outright failed. If they made a decent attempt (notice I said attempt before everyone starts flaming me) at roleplaying I might decrease the DC by a couple points but if a player is content to get through the game by rolling dice I have no problem with sticking him with the normal difficulty for every dice roll. I reward people who make the attempt. In the end it is up to the DM and the group. It would be super easy to throw out skill rolls altogether and go back to the old way of letting PCs do what makes sense for them to do (even in 3E) though it would obviously take honesty on the parts of the DM and the Players. I don't think the DM should ram it down his group's throat but instead should be a compromise.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

In 3e, the player could say something like "I want to find out if there are any rumors about X" and the DM could just roll a Gather Information check and tell him the results and that would be completely "by-the-book 3e D&D".

Actually, I got into a small... "spat" with one of the 3E designers on the Wizards' boards over this very issue. Another poster (a new player) was asking how these skills were supposed to work. The designer (no, I'm not saying who) posted that the above is *exactly* the case (no two ways about it, just roll and be done with it).

I certainly understand that not everyone's a character actor (I certainly ain't). However, there's a difference between not being good at role-playing and not even putting forth any effort and relying on the dice to do everything. In my opinion, minimum effort = minimum chance of success.

(And before someone pipes in with the next complaint, no, being a great character actor does not make your 8 Charisma/no Diplomacy Ranks PC a great diplomat... It just makes him an over-talkative wind bag that no one wants to listen to. If anything, a "great" actor would view the numbers on his sheet and portray those numbers accurately rather than trying to role-play around them. Doing otherwise is akin to munchkinism.)

 

[tjoneslo]

Missing from the entire roll- vs. role playing arguments I've seen so far is how does the roll-playing social situations against the characters work?

In combat, the rules are very well defined. Orc (DM) rolls dice, dice says orc hits, and does damage. No argument.

But if the seductress uses diplomacy (plus many talents... i mean feats) to convince the paladin to do some (borderline) evil act... Dice are rolled, and come up a success, and paladin thinks it's a good idea. If this is your character, how much would you argue the outcome?

 

[Hjorimir]

I subscribe to the 'rolling a social skill is a privilege, not a right' school of thought. I've let my players all know this before they made their character and it hasn't been an issue at all.

I basically make them role-play all of the encounters and then (if I feel it is justified) allow the appropriate skill roll to determine success. While it is very arbitrary, my players trust my DMing enough to be comfortable with my objectivity on such matters.

 

[Uller]

Having abilities too clearly defined is a BAD thing IMHO.

This is true. It's always been one of the paradoxes of game design...the more detailed you make it, the more you must detail the components of the game (and the less fun it can be). Having a detailed skill system translates to inferring that is a character isn't trained in a skill, he can't do it (trained only skills) or can't do it well. This was a problem with the Non-weapon prof's in 2e as well.

For me, I don't really require PCs to take skills like Craft(Basket Weaving) or whatever. The skill point system (in my mind) is only for skills that are relevant to the game. Skills for fleshing out characters don't have to be bought if they don't typically come into play.

With your specific example though, the Use Device skill is pretty pertinent to the game so I'd be careful about it...a rogue that can use wands can be pretty powerful if he has easy access to wands (which is easy enough for a DM to control). I like your solution, though. I'm a pretty easy going DM. If a player is trying to solve a problem through role-playing and/or problem solving, I'll generally put a workable solution in his grasp. Throwing the players a bone for good RP is never a bad thing in my book.