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<blockquote data-quote="Nai_Calus" data-source="post: 4894720" data-attributes="member: 79670"><p>You'd make a lousy copywriter too, K_M. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Any time anything begins with going on about 'tired old fantasy cliches', I do the following things:</p><p></p><p>1. Stop reading</p><p>2. Figure the writers have no idea what they're doing because they feel the need to start with an attack rather than with why what they're trying to sell is supposedly so awesome</p><p>3. Frequently remove whatever it is from all further consideration, because I find traditional fantasy to be neither tired nor old, enjoy it quite a lot, and find that whatever it is that's smashing those tired old cliches frequently does so in a manner that is itself incredibly cliche(How many times have I heard 'I hate traditional elves, so mine are all feral and brutal'?) and also a turn-off to me.</p><p></p><p>Which, yes, we've already established that for reasons that include #3 above, I hate Dark Sun and consider it the pinnacle of 'fantasy things I hate'(Man Arrakis is a less <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> place to live than Athas). But it applies in general to things I'm not familiar with as well. I had no idea what Dark Sun was at one point, for that matter. It was introduced in threads as basically the 'smashing tired old cliches' thing, which immediately put me on my guard, and learning what the setting was actually about just confirmed it.</p><p></p><p>Number 2, though, is somewhat indicative of exactly what they need to not do to market it. There are people who like both 'tired old cliches' *and* 'this is different!' who would be put off by bashing of the one thing they like in an attempt to sell them something else they like. </p><p></p><p>Planescape, which I do like, and which isn't as cliche as most people make it out to, I came across mentioned as a setting where one might find 'demons and angels sitting in a bar in Sigil talking about things over a mug of ale'. This is different, kills the standard operating procedure, but doesn't go on about how much a setting where this would never, ever happen is tired and old and cliched.</p><p></p><p>(Though I often think that the fans of a setting/game system/anything are often its worst enemy. Asking Eberron fans what there is in Eberron for someone who likes traditional fantasy once got me some snotty nasty replies that just served to put me off the setting further out of not wanting to ever associate with people like that. It's like why I read FR novels but you'd have a hell of a time getting me to actually play FR. Canon lawyers, fanboys, those who cry that you're doing it wrong and stupid for not loving something as much as they do. All these things are bad for what they're trying to support.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Nai_Calus, post: 4894720, member: 79670"] You'd make a lousy copywriter too, K_M. ;) Any time anything begins with going on about 'tired old fantasy cliches', I do the following things: 1. Stop reading 2. Figure the writers have no idea what they're doing because they feel the need to start with an attack rather than with why what they're trying to sell is supposedly so awesome 3. Frequently remove whatever it is from all further consideration, because I find traditional fantasy to be neither tired nor old, enjoy it quite a lot, and find that whatever it is that's smashing those tired old cliches frequently does so in a manner that is itself incredibly cliche(How many times have I heard 'I hate traditional elves, so mine are all feral and brutal'?) and also a turn-off to me. Which, yes, we've already established that for reasons that include #3 above, I hate Dark Sun and consider it the pinnacle of 'fantasy things I hate'(Man Arrakis is a less :):):):):):) place to live than Athas). But it applies in general to things I'm not familiar with as well. I had no idea what Dark Sun was at one point, for that matter. It was introduced in threads as basically the 'smashing tired old cliches' thing, which immediately put me on my guard, and learning what the setting was actually about just confirmed it. Number 2, though, is somewhat indicative of exactly what they need to not do to market it. There are people who like both 'tired old cliches' *and* 'this is different!' who would be put off by bashing of the one thing they like in an attempt to sell them something else they like. Planescape, which I do like, and which isn't as cliche as most people make it out to, I came across mentioned as a setting where one might find 'demons and angels sitting in a bar in Sigil talking about things over a mug of ale'. This is different, kills the standard operating procedure, but doesn't go on about how much a setting where this would never, ever happen is tired and old and cliched. (Though I often think that the fans of a setting/game system/anything are often its worst enemy. Asking Eberron fans what there is in Eberron for someone who likes traditional fantasy once got me some snotty nasty replies that just served to put me off the setting further out of not wanting to ever associate with people like that. It's like why I read FR novels but you'd have a hell of a time getting me to actually play FR. Canon lawyers, fanboys, those who cry that you're doing it wrong and stupid for not loving something as much as they do. All these things are bad for what they're trying to support.) [/QUOTE]
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