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<blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 1866804" data-attributes="member: 10201">So, if you can cause someone to doubt, they lose their magic? If not, then it's not based on faith. Moreover, can someone who believes in a god that the GM knows doesn't actually exist in the world gain magic powers? If not, then it's not based on faith.&nbsp; Finally, i'm talking about a world where there is nothing that those who claim to receive power from the gods can do that those who don't believe can't. IOW, if you really want to keep the true existence of divinities a question, it must be possible for someone to do everything the faithful do without a single iota of faith or belief. So long as you keep the arcane/divine magic divide, and have other things that are &quot;faithful-only&quot; (like turning undead), you're undermining an &quot;ambiguous divinity&quot; paradigm, IMHO.&nbsp;&nbsp;IMHO, if you have game-mechanical (and thus &quot;real&quot;) constructs that are only available to characters that believe (in some mechanical sense), then you don't have ambiguous divinity. Now, if you instead have game-mechanicl constructs that are divorced from the belief element (so, frex, anyone *could* learn to turn undead, even if most who do so claim to have divine inspiration), then it lends aid to the ambiguity.&nbsp;&nbsp;Is that clearer?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="woodelf, post: 1866804, member: 10201"] So, if you can cause someone to doubt, they lose their magic? If not, then it's not based on faith. Moreover, can someone who believes in a god that the GM [i]knows[/i] doesn't actually exist in the world gain magic powers? If not, then it's not based on faith. Finally, i'm talking about a world where there is nothing that those who claim to receive power from the gods can do that those who don't believe can't. IOW, if you really want to keep the true existence of divinities a question, it must be possible for someone to do everything the faithful do without a single iota of faith or belief. So long as you keep the arcane/divine magic divide, and have other things that are "faithful-only" (like turning undead), you're undermining an "ambiguous divinity" paradigm, IMHO. IMHO, if you have game-mechanical (and thus "real") constructs that are only available to characters that believe (in some mechanical sense), then you don't have ambiguous divinity. Now, if you instead have game-mechanicl constructs that are divorced from the belief element (so, frex, anyone *could* learn to turn undead, even if most who do so claim to have divine inspiration), then it lends aid to the ambiguity. Is that clearer? [/QUOTE]

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