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<blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 1867854" data-attributes="member: 10201">I think we're talking about two different things--just skimmed the &quot;Cleric&quot; section of Eberron, and it seems clear to me that all clerics get their magic from some sort of external source of power--even if it's just the &quot;pervasive spirit of the dragon&quot;. It is not purely belief-based. Yes, not all believe in &quot;gods&quot;, but, or even higher beings but, game-mechanically, they all acknowledge the existence of those higher beings (even if only the dragon). So, yes, their beliefs can be misguided, believing they get their spells from one place, but actually getting them from another. But, as near as i can tell, Eberron only passes one of my tests (getting power with belief but no proof of power-source)--it still doesn't have people who can do everything a cleric can while professing no belief. &nbsp;&nbsp; No, they don't--and that's precisely my point. You could have a setting where having the faith is all that matters, not what they have faith in. But it'd be hard to do with D&amp;D3E clerics-as-written. You could also have a setting where you don't have to have faith. Again, clerics-as-written aren't a very good match.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I'd have labeled it tautological: clerics are defined as explicitly validating the notions of divinity/higher powers, therefore, by definition, their very existence eliminates the possibility of the answer being ambiguous. Which was really my only point: the D&amp;D construct of &quot;cleric&quot; (not to mention some other classes) is not truly compatible with a setting where the very existence of higher powers is agnostic.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="woodelf, post: 1867854, member: 10201"] I think we're talking about two different things--just skimmed the "Cleric" section of Eberron, and it seems clear to me that all clerics get their magic from some sort of external source of power--even if it's just the "pervasive spirit of the dragon". It is [i]not[/i] purely belief-based. Yes, not all believe in "gods", but, or even higher beings but, game-mechanically, they all acknowledge the existence of those higher beings (even if only the dragon). So, yes, their beliefs can be misguided, believing they get their spells from one place, but actually getting them from another. But, as near as i can tell, Eberron only passes one of my tests (getting power with belief but no proof of power-source)--it still doesn't have people who can do everything a cleric can while professing no belief. No, they don't--and that's precisely my point. You [i]could[/i] have a setting where having the faith is all that matters, not what they have faith in. But it'd be hard to do with D&D3E clerics-as-written. You could also have a setting where you [i]don't[/i] have to have faith. Again, clerics-as-written aren't a very good match. I'd have labeled it tautological: clerics are defined as explicitly validating the notions of divinity/higher powers, therefore, by definition, their very existence eliminates the possibility of the answer being ambiguous. Which was really my only point: the D&D construct of "cleric" (not to mention some other classes) is not truly compatible with a setting where the very existence of higher powers is agnostic. [/QUOTE]

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