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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fanboy2000" data-source="post: 1869544" data-attributes="member: 19998">The statement "magic is chaotic" has noting to do with whether chaotic magic is completly compatable with the 3e or 3.5? I want you to think about that stament for a moment. I mean, I see what your saying, magic dosen't have to be chaotic in D&D, but my statement most definatly has someting to do with the rules.To refute my argument about magic being chaotic, you mentioned that most gods were lawful or neutral. The problem with that logic is that most of the gods are lawful or neutral because it's a game and that's 2/3 or the law/chaos axis, not because magic is non-chaotic.When I cast a spell, there's a posiblity (depending on the spell) that I'll have to make 3 seprate rolls, a consentration check to avoid AOO, spell penatration, and damage. Also, there's a possibility that the target will need to make a save. More rolls can be involved depending on the spell. That's four rolls. Hardly a case of "if you do this, then the following will happen. Always. Without exception."Because a setting can be agnostic, but the characters that inhabit that setting can be Palor fanatics. Palor may never have given a single worshiper reason to belive in him, but that dosen't mean he dosen't have worshipers. It could be, in such a setting, that Palor dosn't actually grant spells, that would be telling. However, his clerics can cast them anyways because of their faith. The setting can be atheist, the gods don't exist at all, but people may have created their own gods and worship them. In that case, the only way a cleric would have any spells at all is through faith. The gods don't exisit, but the cleric can cast spells solely based on faith and nothing else. Wizards and sorcerers can't cast thouse spells because they lack the faith nessary.   No it's not. Maybe magic, as a supernatural force, can grant spells to people with faith. Magic, being a supernatural force, may care whether there are gods or not. This is analagous to a hurricane that dosn't care how expencive your house is, or who you are, it's going to demolish it anyways.Well, this whole discussion on agnosticism is off-topic from the them main point of the thread posted on the first post. Magic in history and mythology started out as an explanation for things that defied a natural explation. It is mysterious and unknowable. It's hard to capture that feel in a game because, by defination, games need rules. I think this is why many people hate power gamers, rules-lawyers, and munchkins so much, because such slavish devotion to the rules seems to take the mysteriousness out what the rules are supposed to represent.It's imparitive that people not mistake the rules of the game for the world the game is set in. Just because there are rules for magic, dosen't mean that magic isn't chaotic from the characters point of view. If Mouse casts a spell on Smaug The Great Wyrm, he dosen't know that he lacked the oomph to get through the Great Red Wyrm's spell penatration, it just looks like another random time a spell didn't work for some reason. Think about how many times a spell simply dosn't work, and it's pretty stagering.</blockquote>

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