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Message: <blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 1871138" data-attributes="member: 10201">However, as soon as a group of people who claim to worship gods can do something that nobody else can, the gods *have* revealed themselves. I mean, no, that's not sufficient to prove their existence with logical rigor--all you've definitely proved is that their belief is true, not the object of their belief. However, we have one bit of info the characters don't: the fact that that difference is codified into he reality by the game mechanics.  I think part of our difference here is you seem to be talking about a world without gods, but one where there are actual higher powers of some sort granting the cleric's abilities. I'm talking about a world where it is not clear that there is anything outside of the cleric involved in the cleric's powers--substituting spirits for gods is not sufficient. From my POV, this isn't about divinities, per se, it's about belief vs. reality, and wanting to be able to divorce the two.</blockquote>