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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7702318" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Let me first say this: dismissing my arguments as "reel[ing] of a handful of opinions as statements," despite being nonsensical (statements can be opinions without changing that they are statements) whilst demanding that I adhere to your arbitrary standards of politeness isn't something that is well tailored to achieve your stated ends. Firstly, I'm rather immune to your demands on how I respond -- I will respond as I expect you will listen: however we want. Secondly, a bit of self awareness might go a long way towards assisting you in achieving your goals. Delivering a poorly veiled insult whilst insisting on civility might work with your friends, but it's unlikely to be a winning strategy in general. Or maybe it has been for you, hence why you use it? I suppose your mileage my vary.</p><p></p><p>That said, your original claim was:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is clearly false, as I have both read Paradise Lost and do not think this. Your instructor, if he taught you this, was a fool, and I apologize to you for your poor education. William Blake nor Percy Blythe Shelley thought this, despite your claims that they did, but instead began the line of criticism that says that Satan comes off better as a <em>literary character</em> in Paradise Lost. This means that Satan is more entertaining to read about, not that it is proper or expected to root for him (although you're welcome to). And even this criticism is far from universal, as there's strong criticism against it and even for other interpretations (like that one that says that Milton intended Paradise Lost to be a criticism of the Church, or that the true meaning is that by seeing God as bad and Satan as good, we just reveal our fallen state). So, there's a huge chunk of academia that disagrees with you. </p><p></p><p>Milton's portrayal of God is hard to love for modern audiences, but not so much for the audience of his time. It wasn't until the Romantics (Blake and Shelley) that the line of criticism that says Satan is the better <em>character</em> between the two shows up, and the Romantics aren't exactly an example of paragons of virtue -- it's almost inevitable that they would think this. But, even there, they don't claim he's a hero, but just that he's the more interesting between Satan and God in Paradise Lost. Satan is a sympathetic evil, but he's also the Great Deceiver, and all of his speeches need to be considered in that light; he's not being honest, he's just playing a role. This is why Shelley's wife Mary took such great inspiration for Frankenstein's Monster from Milton's Satan. The Monster even quotes from Paradise Lost, and apes the same thinking that Satan does about how he's fighting against an injustice. But, the Monster is a Monster and his nature outs, just as Satan is Satan. If you take the passage quoted as a rah-rah speech and, after reflection, still think it so, then you've not pondered the central themes of the work very well. </p><p></p><p>And, to forestall this line of challenge, I'm an agnostic and not invested in Christian theology. I am, however, a fan of this tremendous and seminal piece of literature that still inspires passionate debate. I take issue with it being so cavalierly characterized as a boring book by an incompetent author than accidentally made the greatest evil in his belief structure this awesome hero character and that everyone thinks this. That's a shallow reading of the material and a grand usurpation of its criticism.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7702318, member: 16814"] Let me first say this: dismissing my arguments as "reel[ing] of a handful of opinions as statements," despite being nonsensical (statements can be opinions without changing that they are statements) whilst demanding that I adhere to your arbitrary standards of politeness isn't something that is well tailored to achieve your stated ends. Firstly, I'm rather immune to your demands on how I respond -- I will respond as I expect you will listen: however we want. Secondly, a bit of self awareness might go a long way towards assisting you in achieving your goals. Delivering a poorly veiled insult whilst insisting on civility might work with your friends, but it's unlikely to be a winning strategy in general. Or maybe it has been for you, hence why you use it? I suppose your mileage my vary. That said, your original claim was: This is clearly false, as I have both read Paradise Lost and do not think this. Your instructor, if he taught you this, was a fool, and I apologize to you for your poor education. William Blake nor Percy Blythe Shelley thought this, despite your claims that they did, but instead began the line of criticism that says that Satan comes off better as a [I]literary character[/I] in Paradise Lost. This means that Satan is more entertaining to read about, not that it is proper or expected to root for him (although you're welcome to). And even this criticism is far from universal, as there's strong criticism against it and even for other interpretations (like that one that says that Milton intended Paradise Lost to be a criticism of the Church, or that the true meaning is that by seeing God as bad and Satan as good, we just reveal our fallen state). So, there's a huge chunk of academia that disagrees with you. Milton's portrayal of God is hard to love for modern audiences, but not so much for the audience of his time. It wasn't until the Romantics (Blake and Shelley) that the line of criticism that says Satan is the better [I]character[/I] between the two shows up, and the Romantics aren't exactly an example of paragons of virtue -- it's almost inevitable that they would think this. But, even there, they don't claim he's a hero, but just that he's the more interesting between Satan and God in Paradise Lost. Satan is a sympathetic evil, but he's also the Great Deceiver, and all of his speeches need to be considered in that light; he's not being honest, he's just playing a role. This is why Shelley's wife Mary took such great inspiration for Frankenstein's Monster from Milton's Satan. The Monster even quotes from Paradise Lost, and apes the same thinking that Satan does about how he's fighting against an injustice. But, the Monster is a Monster and his nature outs, just as Satan is Satan. If you take the passage quoted as a rah-rah speech and, after reflection, still think it so, then you've not pondered the central themes of the work very well. And, to forestall this line of challenge, I'm an agnostic and not invested in Christian theology. I am, however, a fan of this tremendous and seminal piece of literature that still inspires passionate debate. I take issue with it being so cavalierly characterized as a boring book by an incompetent author than accidentally made the greatest evil in his belief structure this awesome hero character and that everyone thinks this. That's a shallow reading of the material and a grand usurpation of its criticism. [/QUOTE]
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