Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 6188642" data-attributes="member: 6668292">Okay, good, I'm glad you know I didn't understand. I took it as general advice, for my benefit, as well as that of anyone else reading (which is what I'm looking for in the thread). I thought my post might seem too... I don't know... defensive? I tried to make it clear that I did appreciate your advice, because I do. I just have to communicate how I run things, and how it relates to your advice, so that you can give me further useful advice <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Agreed all around. Glad you know what works for your group, and I'm glad you're putting it out there, for everyone to see, since hopefully people are benefiting from this thread and the advice within it <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'm just about the same. When they got Eoh, the Earth Elemental Guardian to bloodied, they triggered an effect that caused a slight cave-in (this was also supposed to be meant as shallow foreshadowing of what defeating him brought about: a full-on cave-in). When this happened, I described the shaking of the ceiling, the moans of the walls, etc., before I got to "rocks are falling, making attacks against you" and the mechanics behind it.Yep yep <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I only do it if they bring up "any ideas on how to use this skill?" Otherwise, I leave them to it.I basically do the same thing with combat. With that in mind, when we do enter a skill challenge, it's at that point I tell them they're in one, what the complexity is (so they know their advantages / successes necessary / Hard checks necessary / etc.), and then have them roll initiative, just like I would for combat. However, I do like to explicitly announce when we do enter a skill challenge, so that the players can utilize the resource management aspect of it (advantages, going for different DCs at different points, etc.).This is about what I do, before asking "what do you do?" I usually don't even give them their options "carts, etc.", and just leave that stuff for them to figure out (though I might make suggestions to the "new" players).Yep, this is pretty much exactly what I do, too, which is why I agreed with you about your Intimidate example in your last post. I might say "you can't use Insight that way, since there's nobody to use it on currently present", but that doesn't mean that there aren't uses for Insight available that we haven't thought of. The Monk in my group has used Insight with nobody present a couple of times (to look for intent in a puzzle, and to look for insight into a maze).I'm not going to blanket disallow any skill just because I don't see a use for it, though I might say "no, that's a Perception check, not Thievery, but it'll be a Thievery check later if you do find what you're looking for" or "no, you can't use Insight to determine that, since you have nobody and nothing to determine intent on."Absolutely agreed.I'd let him see the key. I don't think that finding the key should be the end of the skill challenge, though, nor do I see why it'd need to be an automatic success, then. It's going to change the fictional context of the ongoing skill challenge (they have the key, and now what do they do with it?), but it's still ongoing (at my table, at least).Ah, it does somewhat explain things. I don't run any pre-made adventures, and I've never, ever been in a situation where the "adventure" told me that an "Athletics roll is required, and grants 1 success." Since I've never been that boxed in, I don't think that I've really worried about this kind of thing before. If this was something I was running, and I felt like it was necessary to run it similar to what the adventure had already, I'd likely give an auto-success, too. I just don't run into that kind of thing at all, and so your reasoning didn't make sense until now.Yep <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />In the context of a pre-made adventure, it makes a lot more sense to me, yep.It does make more sense, and it's just a different approach to mine. I'd give a bonus, but not an automatic success. But, for me, I'm relying on the forced narrative structure of skill challenges to prolong the encounter (but not indefinitely), so that we can see how the fictional context changes due to that forced structure. Because of me leaning on that forced narrative structure to begin with, I'm not looking to bypass it (even a little bit) with automatic successes, I'm looking to see how it contributes to my game. I still want to reward engaging and thoughtful play (getting a ladder, in this example, or bringing up something the duke cares about), so I'll give a bonus, but I don't want to bypass successes / failures and the changing context brought on by them. That's part of the fun!Yep, got it, now <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'd probably consider it a failed roll, but it's always hard to judge fiction and the mechanics of any system.Big moments of sacrifice do move me to make exceptions. If it's an escape scene, I could even see myself ending the entire skill challenge, and letting the rest of the party escape. This doesn't come up often, from my experience; my players basically always look for any out, up to the end, even if they're very Good characters.Yes, definitely on the DM.I might even break away from that in my normal RPG and group, but in 4e, I'm following this bit of advice. Of course, I'm ignoring a lot of other advice (explicitly always ignoring skills, or explicitly accepting certain skills), so I can see how the need to state this is kinda necessary on my part.Agreed.To a certain extent, yes, but I think I'd find it a bit too limiting, still. I do present things from a character perspective, but I can see how explicitly dealing with the mechanics might be too much for certain groups. But, I rely on my players to handle things in combat, so I expect no less in skill challenges. Just a group preference thing.Glad you understood where I was coming from. I hope your advice hits home for many people, as skill challenges really can use a lot of advice. I remember looking over this list (<a href="http://this list" target="_blank">[URL="http://[URL"]http://www.critical-hits.com/features/skill-challenges/</a>[/url]) a while ago. Lots of useful stuff in there.Thanks again <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

Verification