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<blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5425343" data-attributes="member: 61155">Aegeri, I don't think that's an especially compelling example. You can play a non-optimized character who is still effective, and that's what the Shade Slayer is. Your Half-orc Slayer will also be more effective than any number of other Slayers of different races, especially if they spent actions doing largely nonsensical things. An empty argument like that shows pretty much nothing. &nbsp;For myself... well, getting into specific examples on this topic feels a little unnecessary. The fact that this race offers less benefits than others doesn't make it unplayable. Comparisons have been made to 'Small' and other downsides, and those are good examples - they don't prevent play, they just discourage certain builds, or punish players for choosing something based on flavor. It's something 4E tried to get away from, but has not completely let go of, and it is pretty much the same thing we have here. &nbsp;Can you build an effective Shade? Sure. Even in the absolutely worst scenario - a Rogue who gets no benefit from the Stealth training, sorely misses the lost surge, and has his own class features and powers to let him hide - the character can still be effective. &nbsp;But that doesn't make the downsides of their race any better. You shouldn't have to feel bad about choosing a sub-optimal option for flavor reasons. Will the choice to play a Shade complely undermine your character? Of course not. But not being unplayable doesn't mean it isn't underpowered, and it's pretty undeniable that that is what this is. &nbsp;Now, since I've continued to spend time making negative comments, so tomorrow I'll see if I can come up with any builds that can actually take serious advantage of what the Shade does have to offer!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="MrMyth, post: 5425343, member: 61155"] Aegeri, I don't think that's an especially compelling example. You can play a non-optimized character who is still effective, and that's what the Shade Slayer is. Your Half-orc Slayer will also be more effective than any number of other Slayers of different races, especially if they spent actions doing largely nonsensical things. An empty argument like that shows pretty much nothing. For myself... well, getting into specific examples on this topic feels a little unnecessary. The fact that this race offers less benefits than others doesn't make it unplayable. Comparisons have been made to 'Small' and other downsides, and those are good examples - they don't prevent play, they just discourage certain builds, or punish players for choosing something based on flavor. It's something 4E tried to get away from, but has not completely let go of, and it is pretty much the same thing we have here. Can you build an effective Shade? Sure. Even in the absolutely worst scenario - a Rogue who gets no benefit from the Stealth training, sorely misses the lost surge, and has his own class features and powers to let him hide - the character can still be effective. But that doesn't make the downsides of their race any better. You shouldn't [I]have[/I] to feel bad about choosing a sub-optimal option for flavor reasons. Will the choice to play a Shade complely undermine your character? Of course not. But not being unplayable doesn't mean it isn't underpowered, and it's pretty undeniable that that is what this is. Now, since I've continued to spend time making negative comments, so tomorrow I'll see if I can come up with any builds that can actually take serious advantage of what the Shade [I]does[/I] have to offer! [/QUOTE]

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