Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5425693" data-attributes="member: 78116">Actually this isn't entirely true, if enemies find where you are you become no longer hidden (they beat your stealth or you no longer have cover/concealment to remain hidden). Then you have no further defensive benefit anymore. Whereas the difference between hidden and genuinely invisible is that you always have total concealment when invisible. If you're a shade hiding behind something to remain hidden and the enemy moves past - meaning you no longer have cover - you are now automatically no longer hidden from that enemy. If you're invisible, you don't care because your total concealment to remain hidden "follows" you everywhere. So even if you get discovered you can become hidden again whenever you want and enemies melee/ranged attacks will take a -5 penalty anyway (even when they know where you are). This is also why the shade in melee - I've been busy btw since the original discussion - flat out fails to work. Unless he can generate cover or concealment in his square, allies are poor substitutes to become hidden. I like to compare what happens to chess, where your king being threatened by another piece (like a queen) pins the piece in the way in place. For example if the shade hides behind the fighter for cover, the fighter is now "pinned" in place because if he moves breaking cover - the enemies now immediately see the shade. So even in combat this works incredibly poorly, because if the monster moves around as soon as it breaks the cover from the ally it will see the shade then pound him into the dirt. Plus the shade loses the benefit from being hidden in the first place (CA, -5 etc). If the shade hides behind the fighter, then the fighter gets punted away by a push/pull/slide, whoops there goes your hidden condition.For the rules source:I hate to say it, but unless Klaus has some tactic I don't know about I cannot make his shade slayer remotely viable in melee combat. Without another source of concealment/cover that isn't an ally, creatures can easily break his stealth and hence cause him to mostly waste a standard action doing nothing. The above in melee with allies for cover is insanely difficult to do. Not to mention the other disadvantage of hidden: If one enemy sees you then what square you're in is irrelevant, because the guy you're trying to hide from will know. Then it's a simple shift around the obstructing ally and bam: Your hidden condition is gone and he can whack the stick off you without penalty.That is just the problem. Once you are hidden you can easily remain that way by being out of sight, in the dark and similar - the shade still has to have cover, concealment or an ally (unlikely in this scenario) to remain hidden. Same with anyone else. All they need is the first stealth check and everything else is irrelevant after-wards except if you have cover or concealment. Nothing about the shades racial changes that, so what the shade could sneak through neither would the normal stealth trained character have a problem with. So this powers combat utility is where the argument does need to be focused.</blockquote>

Verification