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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5425815" data-attributes="member: 78116">Actually this is not correct for an out of combat situation.So this is not true and neither the shade nor the trained PC can remain in stealth without cover or concealment. In the shades case he can use another PC, but the instant that PC ceases serving as cover his hidden condition is broken - making it unpredictable and unreliable at best. Especially because if the enemies are paying attention - where a regular stealth check wouldn't work - then it will be easy to break the cover from an ally and expose him (Which requires no passive perception or a roll - if you lack cover or concealment from an enemy, you are simply no longer hidden). "Distracted" is the only really debatable point here and depending on the position of the guards, using the other PCs as cover can range from doable to impossible as again, you break hidden the instant you lack cover (assuming the enemies are not distracted). As you occupy a single square with nine squares adjacent to it. If an NPC can draw a line through any square unobstructed by a PC you no longer have cover and boom, you are no longer hidden. So we would have to assume distracted NPCs for this to be viable and at that point, you can make a stealth check anyway even without needing your allies. So again, we're no better off outside of combat than anyone else. The only situation I can see this argument being truly viable is you have nine other creatures (all your allies) around you. This would provide a wall of cover that you could hide in - very assassin's creed like this. Then again it's also the most obvious thing ever, which begs the question what on earth you're trying to do with the stealth in the first place unless it's a very specific scenario.If someone could generate their own concealment (a warlocks shadow walk is a good example) they wouldn't need any of this to begin with. They could stealth out of sight and just walk around the corner - they will always have concealment and so it doesn't matter if the enemies can see them or not (or if they are distracted). Not to mention that it isn't that hard in 4E to get some invisibility or concealment to make this possible for just about anyone. Not even at a huge resource cost either - certainly not at the massive resource cost of a viable racial power.It pretty clearly doesn't and thus far, nobody has successfully argued why this is better out of combat than say a cunning sneak (or just anyone regularly trained in stealth for that matter). It's sole advantage is that you can use it to stealth while adjacent to an ally, but this then relies on the ally providing 'cover'. As cover is drawn from sight lines between an enemy and the shade, it is very hard for a medium PC to consistently provide cover to the shade. A group of PCs moving as a group with the shade in the middle would do it - but I don't have to tell you how immensely obvious such a formation is to anyone looking at it. Not to mention if enemies are reasonably spread it can be almost impossible to prevent someone drawing a clear line between the characters and breaking cover (and therefore stealth). So there is very little benefit to doing this, especially given the examples people are giving for how stealth is normally used.</blockquote>

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