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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5425899" data-attributes="member: 78116">Because it's by far the most reasonable assumption.Then, around the corner or in a buildings doorway or similar they hide. They then move through the city with the partial concealment - even with the rest of the party. He can then walk with the party completely normally after that due to the twilight. Unless these city guard are literally omnipresent and everywhere, this is a pretty moot issue (and if they are, then you're not having an easy time sneaking in the first place).So your example fails immediately on that point.So can a regular rogue who is trained in other skills. Also I dispute that the shade can hide, because allies as cover is actually quite dubious. What is the parties formation and what is the line of sight of the guards? Can no guards draw a straight line through to the shade PC without touching another PC (and that's the definition of cover from a PC). Also, both the shade and cunning sneak in your scenario do not require their allies, because they can hide using the concealment alone. Other characters can use items that dim lighting, utility powers or just their regular powers to make a stealth check to become hidden.  So the shade is at no special advantage whatsoever still.The allies are irrelevant, because he can do so with concealment and the cunning sneak can do this as well. So can many other characters trained in stealth, such as the warlock whose shadow step will provide concealment, stacking with the current concealment to provide total concealment for him to hide. You've manufactured in detail a scenario that the shade is no better at than the cunning sneak (and many other classes).Depends on where the guards are and this isn't as easy as you think: Medium creatures don't block LoS easily and it takes one clear LoS to break hidden. That's it. In the scenario you made though it's rather irrelevant, anyone trained in stealth could (when no guards were around) hide and follow his allies. The concealment you've provided means that the town guard won't see them unless they beat his stealth check. Okay, so that seems fine. Can you explain to me where the shade is getting the standard action to ready to do this from? Considering he needs a standard action to use his racial to use an ally as cover to begin with - where is the standard action coming from to ready the action? What exactly is the shade going to do all combat? Occupy a square?All of these are easy enough to actually do with roleplaying, items, feats and utility powers. That's the entire fatal flaw to this supporting argument. These are things the character would be taking anyway as well.May I ask, would there be a particular reason he couldn't have been using stealth from the moment they left their inn or similar in the first place? I'm confused as to your example, because you're trying massively hard to make something in the shades favor and yet I can't quite see how this is supposed to be something the shade can only do. If the place is in twilight (concealment everywhere outside) when they leave, if there are no guards they can hide in the first place. If the guards don't have a reason to be looking for the PCs, why is getting out of sight to stealth a problem? If the town guards are hostile for the character trying to stealth, why isn't he doing that to begin with anyway? It just took an immense amount of absolutely, 100% completely specific engineering to make this. However, let me just say that if you can generate concealment this is now entirely irrelevant. For example a warlock see the guard, he stealths outside of the guards line of sight and then waltz down the hallway with concealment.He doesn't need his allies and neither will they give him away.He does this by a class feature he's granted for free, that costs him no action to use.He makes his own concealment, so staying hidden is no problem.Incidentally, I do wonder why the allies are wandering down the hallway not giving the entire game away. I mean if you're trying to be stealthy needing three allies to march down the hallway in plain sight is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.I can think of so many logical problems with your argument here, beginning with the fact the guard might wonder "Why are three heavily armed random individuals walking towards me?" You are hidden, but your allies aren't and if the guard doesn't react well to that your entire strategy breaks down like a house of cards. Say you can only go halfway down before the guard tells you that if you go any further that the jig is up. Now your allies can't go anywhere and the shade is no better off.Effectively you need to engineer such a highly specific set of circumstances for this to be useful, that you actually make my argument for me.Yet if he has a source of concealment he almost certainly can - this is not hard to do with items.Which are just about stepping out of line of sight, with distracted enemies they don't actually need either (if you noted). I again, would like to point you towards the out of combat stealth rules, where you require neither total concealment or total cover to begin hiding if the enemies are distracted.Without another power, a cunning sneak cannot use his allies as cover to become hidden.I do recall that a power can do this though, but you can't ordinarily use your allies as cover to remain hidden. Also allies do not provide cover to remain hidden.Unless the cunning sneak in your party has a power or item that lets him use allies to remain hidden (and as cover for a stealth check), he's never been able to do that to begin with :OMy point there is the opportunity cost involved - especially in actions. The CS just does this. The shade pays a standard action and a -1 penalty to surges. Anyone else has a slightly, but not overall more arduous time doing it.So? What point does this have to anything I've said? The ordinary guy trained in stealth can begin hiding before combat and remain that way in the same lightning conditions. The shade can be more reactive - that's true - but a canny player can realize his disadvantages and start hiding before he's ever in trouble.Unless he has a power or a feat that lets him do this, no, no he actually can't. Cunning sneak specifically rules out allies and the stealth rules specifically rule out using allies as cover to remain hidden.</blockquote>

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