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<blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5426217" data-attributes="member: 78116">They are not your allies though and so do not count for the purposes of the power. 4E has &quot;Creature&quot; (which is everything), &quot;Ally&quot; and &quot;Enemy&quot;. Enemies are just things that are not your allies and your allies are your companions (willing recipients of your effects). A random crowd who has no idea who you are would at best be an enemy if they counted as anything at all really. I definitely do not see them counting as allies. Then again that could make defiling in Dark Sun extremely amusing in a marketplace or something.Nope, because those bystanders in terms of effects in 4E are not your allies. This is massive stretching. At worst they are enemies and at best - actually 4E only has &quot;ally&quot; and &quot;enemy&quot; - a kind of nebulously defined &quot;creature&quot;. The power in question is relying on these creatures being allies of yours - in other words that they are willing recipients of your powers effects. A random crowd of bystanders definitely does not fit this definition. I would argue though that a dense crowd could definitely give you concealment and even total concealment if dense enough. Not from individuals in the crowd, but from someone on the outside looking in that's exactly the sort of effect a crowd would have. But then we don't need this specific racial power to do this.They are not your allies either and due to the fact they are not willing recipients of your effects (which is the generally regarded definition of ally in 4E). Also you seem to be confused with the definition of enemy/ally in 4E. Ally and enemy are relative, the crowd can be (for effects) your enemy and it is also equally the enemy of your &quot;enemies&quot; (say the town guard). Just because the crowd isn't an ally of your enemies doesn't make it your ally. It doesn't have to be anyone's ally. In fact going a step further, nobody in the crowd has to be the ally of anyone else in the crowd.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Aegeri, post: 5426217, member: 78116"] They are not your allies though and so do not count for the purposes of the power. 4E has "Creature" (which is everything), "Ally" and "Enemy". Enemies are just things that are not your allies and your allies are your companions (willing recipients of your effects). A random crowd who has no idea who you are would at best be an enemy if they counted as anything at all really. I definitely do not see them counting as allies. Then again that could make defiling in Dark Sun [I]extremely[/I] amusing in a marketplace or something. Nope, because those bystanders in terms of effects in 4E are not your allies. This is [I]massive[/I] stretching. At worst they are enemies and at best - actually 4E only has "ally" and "enemy" - a kind of nebulously defined "creature". The power in question is relying on these creatures being allies of yours - in other words that they are willing recipients of your powers effects. A random crowd of bystanders definitely does not fit this definition. I would argue though that a dense crowd could definitely give you concealment and even total concealment if dense enough. Not from individuals in the crowd, but from someone on the outside looking in that's exactly the sort of effect a crowd would have. But then we don't need this specific racial power to do this. They are not your allies either and due to the fact they are not willing recipients of your effects (which is the generally regarded definition of ally in 4E). Also you seem to be confused with the definition of enemy/ally in 4E. Ally and enemy are relative, the crowd can be (for effects) your enemy and it is also equally the enemy of your "enemies" (say the town guard). Just because the crowd isn't an ally of your enemies doesn't make it your ally. It doesn't have to be [i]anyone's[/i] ally. In fact going a step further, nobody in the crowd has to be the ally of anyone else in the crowd. [/QUOTE]

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