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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadence" data-source="post: 8110000" data-attributes="member: 6701124">It kind of feels like Magic-Users being limited to 5th level spells instead of 9th (for elves), or Clerics being limited to 2nd level spells instead of 7th (for Half-Orcs) does make them useless in higher level adventures just for the spells. Even so, no, they don't need to retire right away. But give it four levels and the magic-user might miss the extra 1/1/1/2/2/2/1 spells, especially when they didn't have any of the 6th or 7th level ones (the 5 hp and no to hit probably don't factor in). For the cleric those four levels are 0/1/3/2 spells - where they didn't have the 3rd or 4th before, and average of 18 hit points, +2 to hit, and turning on a completely different scale. "Modest Loss"!?!?!?And for fighters, the Elvish fighter stuck at 6th level for only having a 16 strength is already 2 lower on the to-hit rolls and an average of at least 5 hp down with just one change in level. You're literally the first person I've ever heard imply it wouldn't.  I think it definitely would, and would bet that the vast majority of players would say it does.  And that if D&D hadn't had them, and a competitor came out with them, that D&D would have needed to adapt or die.</blockquote>