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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8112824" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Their strong tradition of magic gives them Dexterity? Obviously not, it gives them a +1 Int.... the exact same a human with no strong tradition of magic.And Hobgoblins, who have not generally been seen as masters of Arcane Power.Under this interpretation though, Tasha's rules are even more imperative. How am I supposed to show a rebel against elven traditions if I can't change the stats that are derived from those traditions? And how would we show different elves of different traditions, if not by the ability to move scores? I'm sure the elves of Athas are not like the elves of Faerun, so they would have different stats. If you think this gives you that much insight, you may be reading too deep into it. I mean, if I assume the racial traits are true the conversation would go"He is wearing armor, wizards don't wear armor. He must be a cleric""Fool, he's a dwarf, all dwarves wear armor into battle. He isn't wearing any religious iconography, why would he be a cleric?""A fighter then.""With no shield and wielding a staff? Use your head, that's an arcane focus. This guys a mage for sure." After all, this is literally the type of conversation my players would have. So, some INT 16 monsters should be able to follow that same logic with no issue. Also, there is version two"He's a fighter get him"fireball"He's a Wizard, gank him!"I'm sorry, you lost me. No player will intentionally gimp their character. But, playing a Dwarf Wizard or Elf Strength Fighter isn't a bad thing, even with their lower scores, because of whatever reason you want to give. But, with Tasha's they now have a choice to bump those scores, from scores that weren't a bad thing to an optimized version...And if they don't do it they are gimping their character... which they weren't doing by... I don't know, playing an un-optimized race to start with? In fact, Oofta specifically wants scores less than 16, to prove his point that having a score less than 16 doesn't matter... yet at the same time if given a choice he would never chose to have a score less than 16.... You guys are arguing in circles by this point.Where is the race for B, because unless he is a Half-Orc, there is no way to get that trait. This is like arguing every race will now start with Great Weapon Master. And, I honestly hate this argument that without a +2 Strength +1 Con a half-orc is only a human in a rubber mask. Because then.... what do we call a Goliath (+2 Strength +1 Con) an Orc (+2 Strength +1 Con), or a Minotaur (+2 Strength +1 Con). There are four races with this exact same stat array. Does that mean that a Minotaur is just a half-orc with some fake horns glued on? Or are they really Goliaths? I mean, take those scores away, and they are just humans, because they all have the same scores. So, having all the same scores now means they are unidentifiable as being different right?Same with Elves, that +2 Dexterity and +1 Wisdom is the exact same as multiple halfings (Ghostwise, Loutsadan, and the Jorasco), Aaracrockra, and Kenku. Are these races really the exact same? Just rubber masks that the elves can wear? No. They aren't. They never have been. And this insistence that they will be just seems completely unfounded.</blockquote>

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