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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8115371" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Wonderful. They are made up races and can be anything. So they can be made up to have a floating ASI of +2 and +1. So... why were we saying that that would ruin the game when those scores were meaningless in the first place?---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So what is the reason to keep it, if there it doesn't matter the specific reason in the first place? I mean, I could say they get +1 Charisma because they are used to negotiating deals, or because they have a strong traditional of oral history and debate, or because they tend to wear fancier clothes or or or or or... So, I have just as strong of a justification for Charisma as Wisdom, so how is allowing the ability to switch from Wisdom to Charisma bad?OH MY !@#$%^&^%$# !@#$%Y^%$#@BECAUSE I'M NOT SAYING THAT!!Good god above, this has to be why I am struggling to get through to you, because you keep thinking I'm saying something that I am not saying. I am going to break this down, one.last.time. In the Player's Handbook, after you get done reading about Dwarves, they have the mechanical subrace for Hill Dwarves. They get +1 Wisdom and Toughness. I am going to call them Dwarf X for the rest of this post. After that they have the mechanical Mountain Dwarves, they get +2 Strength and Armor Proficiency. I am going to call them Dwarf Y. So, to repeat, Dwarf X gets Wisdom and Toughness, Dwarf Y gets Strength and Armor. Okay, are we following so far? Now. In the section for Dwarf X, it says that these dwarves are represented in settings by the Hill Dwarves of Greyhawk and the Gold Dwarves of Faerun. In the section for Dwarf Y, it says that these dwarves are represented in settings by the Mountain Dwarves of Greyhawk and the Shield Dwarves of Faerun. So, to repeat, Dwarf X (which gets +1 Wisdom and toughness) is represented by the Hill Dwarves and the Gold Dwarves, while Dwarf Y (which gets +2 Strength and Armor proficiency) is represented by the Mountain Dwarves and the Shield Dwarves. Now. Because of this, we can safely say that the Mountain Dwarves of Greyhawk and the Shield Dwarves of Faerun, as well as the Hill Dwarves of Greyhawk and the Gold Dwarves of Faerun, are mechanically identical. Because the Mountain Dwarves and Shield Dwarves are both Dwarf Y (getting strength and armor proficiency mechanically) and the Hill Dwarves and the Gold Dwarves are both Dwarf X (getting Wisdom and Toughness)So, in the listing of Groups, I could list this, and be mechanically correct.Group 1: Dwarf X, Hill Dwarf, Gold DwarfGroup 2: Dwarf Y, Mountain Dwarf, Shield Dwarf. By this stage in my argument, I have done nothing except very slowly and very carefully repeat the PHB, so there should be no disagreement by this point. Those two groups are 100% accurate to the mechanics. Now, it was originally claimed that the reason for the difference in mechanical modifiers (Dwarf X getting Wisdom and Dwarf Y getting strength) was because of Culture. If this statement were true we would expect that Hill Dwarves from Greyhawk and Gold Dwarves from Faerun, would have similiar cultures. Because both are Dwarf X, and both get the same mechanical ASI. So, if culture were the Root of the ASIs, then they should match up. To save time, I am going to pull out the two big identifying features to summarize the cultures. I am going to call one "Open Dwarves" for the increased likelihood of close relations with other races and "Shut-in Dwarves" for those who are more xenophobic and unwilling to trust outsiders. This is a simplification, but I have made my case for these differences repeatedly and this is just to get you to understand the argument. So, what do we find? Group 3: Open Dwarves, Hill Dwarves, Shield DwarvesGroup 4: Shut-in Dwarves, Mountain Dwarves, Gold DwarvesBy all rights, Group 3 should be the exact same as Group 1. Hill Dwarves and Gold Dwarves both get the +1 Wisdom from Dwarf X, so Dwarf X should be the Open Dwarves. And at the same time, Group 4 should equal Group 2. However, what we really have is that the Shield Dwarves culturally are more similar to the Hill Dwarves.  And that culturally the Mountain Dwarves and Gold Dwarves share more similarities. Even though they mechanically are opposed. This means, to me, that since the Cultural group does not equal the mechanical group, and in fact they are flipped opposite for the Faerun dwarves, who are supposed to represent the same mechanics as the Greyhawk Dwarves, that culture has nothing to do with it. Because if it did, then Group 1 would be identical to group 3. At no point am I ever saying that Dwarf X equals Dwarf Y. I only care about Dwarf X and Dwarf Y as they pertain to grouping the Hill, Mountain, Gold and Shield dwarves as per the player's handbook information. I have now gone into exhaustive detail, showing exactly what I am saying. If you don't get it now, I literally do not know what else to do.</blockquote>

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