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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8117470" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I don't think that would happen. The convenience and thematics of bundled abilities and roles for wizards, clerics, fighters, ect is deeply ingrained and works very very well. Sure, little bits here and there, but something like class alternative features is a fine solution to give multiple options at the appropriate levels.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------No problem man, it happens.I would bring up the fact that there is more to evidence than being able to straight quote a book or show a mathematical proof, but I think I would rather end this discussion with this instead of drag it out more.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes and no. Yes, DnD had a massive influence on everything, especially the realms of Fantasy. But, archetypes change and evolve. They must. The archetypal "hero" has changed over the last 200 years, and the last twenty years, because Archetypes reflect the stories being told by the culture, and those stories change over time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Your second bullet point is the real sticky point. Because two players want it, two players don't, and both will have hard feelings about the ruling. There is no solution here, this is pure case by case, table by table, And we simply can't change that. As for the psych study, I am passingly familiar with it, but it should be acknowledged that this indicates a spectrum, because we also all know that a lack of choices decreases satisfaction. So, is this too many choices, or are we currently at too few? Time will tell. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------It makes sense if you remember how much work raising a child is. They don't have the time to dedicate to their favorite game any more, so making it easier would be nice. And, if you want to argue that the current version is easier... then to follow the original logic power gamers and min/maxers must love the game as is and not care about this harder set of rules. After all, the original point was that min/maxers and optimizers love it when the game gets easier. Also, way to ruin any chance I was going to agree with you by calling me and my friends "whiny power gamers". Since all of us are excited for this book, that would make all of us like that. Which we are far far from. But hey, why not just keep insulting the other side, it makes you look good after all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So a human from a rich noble family who takes a vow or poverty isn't subverting expectations? A human born in a city of lawless thieves who is a moral paragon has no stereotype they are combating against? A human from a demon cult worshipping a goddess (or vice versa) is not playing against type? It is also good to know that my human can never play against type, in any way, shape or form. Saves me effort from being creative. Heck, sounds like I don't need to be creative with any race. Want to be a unique Tiefling? Play a fighter, don't need to do anything else, you are playing against type and have made an interesting character all ready (this sarcasm brought to you by facepalming, the thing I've been doing a lot this thread)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Not born of dragons? Volos entry is called "Kobolds: Little Dragons" And their entry talks about how they believe they were created by Tiamat and that they are proud to be the blood-kin of dragons. In fact, we also know that the wings of an Urd (a winged kobold) are seen as a gift from Tiamat (the Queen of Evil Dragons) and that their patron god Kurtulumak is seen as a servant of Tiamat. Who is traditionally served by, wait for it, Dragons. But, sure, size is probably the real reason you did that. Big things strong, small things dexterous. Don't need to get complicated I suppose.Which your proposed rule takes away, ruling it unimportant? The entire point was that by narrowing down races into a single stat mod, you are doing exactly what people have been accusing Tasha's of doing. What you yourself seemed unhappy with. Removing Nuance. You have declared that it is more important that Bugbears are strong rather than being dexterous. But, I can and did make a consistent argument that it can be more important that they are dexterous. So, why is your rule to take away these precious identifiers of racial "identity" different than Tashas? Because you made six categories of sameness instead of one?The context was that removing the stat modifiers would make the entire race homogenous with every other race, indistinguishable from human. Other than that, I don't even know what you are trying to say by saying that they are about only the modifiers and not the entire race, when they said the "race" will be humans in rubber masks. Do you think they only meant the mechanical ability scores would be humans in rubber masks? But they were arguing that getting rid of the racial modifiers made everyone homogenous. So, if multiple races can have the same ability scores with no problem... which one's can't? Because if everyone being able to choose to have any score they prefer is bad, but some of the races having the same scores is okay... what are the acceptable groups? Who is similar enough that they are allowed to share racial bonuses? How can we tell when discussions of why these bonuses exist go nowhere except in tautological circles? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Playing against type" is not restricted to playing against mechanical archetype. That is a gross warping of that term.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Are they equally miffed if I play a strong human? I can get a +2 strength as a level 1 human. What if I play a strong Goliath, are they miffed I'm taking their niche? Strong Dwarf? Strong Firbolg? Strong Earth Genasi? Or is their niche threatened because someone smaller than them is equally strong? Do they feel that to be strong they need to tower over everyone else? Would they feel threatened if I played a medium strength elf who was taller than them? What exactly is their complaint with a second strong man?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yea, my tables do have this a few times. Not as often as I'd like, but we've often had a few characters who are playing against culture or expectations. Like my Barbarian who was a knight (and a good knight too) There is more to playing against type than playing against numbers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So now it matters how good at roleplaying you are to be allowed to play against type without needing to have it involve math? You realize how elitist that sounds right? Telling someone they aren't good enough to play the character they are envisioning? I guess I should cool off a little, because thinking about it, there are some concepts I would trust more in the hands of an established player. I wouldn't feel comfortable letting a new player be "the romantic partner of a god who was banished to the mortal planes" or other concepts that seem to be trying to get a mechanical advantage. But I would never consider playing against type to be something only "skilled" RPer's could do properly. A city slicker elf is against type after all, and that isn't really that hard for someone to pull off.</blockquote>

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