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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8118067" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Every time I've looked at the flavor of the race... on come the exceptions. It seems that there is very little that we can actually latch into for these stats, yet losing them would be catastrophic.Except that isn't how it works. The miners don't have hundreds of kobolds going after the same wall. So, good job just making stuff up?Right, so if being part of a martial culture isn't enough.... why did you act like it is? If orcs are strong because they value strength, but humans valuing strength isn't enough to make them as strong as orcs, then valuing strength isn't the key is it? Well, to quote you on Bugbears, that is only true if you ignore their history. 3.5 made it very clear they were descended from dragons. People didn't like that, because dragons are powerful and kobolds are mooks, so now they don't state it outright, but they also don't refute it. And how much Dragon Blood does a Dragonborn have? They were "born of dragons" generations ago, they are likely down to 1/128 or less of their ancestor's blood. What does Dex mean? PHB says "Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance."What does graceful mean? "... in the form of elegant movement, poise, or balance." Dexterity in part measure balance, graceful means in part moving with balance. So, again, they have high dexterity, because they show attributes related to high dexterity. Just because you say "they get a bonus to dexterity because they are graceful" does not mean you get away from the fact that Dexterity is a measurement of grace, meaning they get a bonus to being able to move gracefully because they can move gracefully. It is circular logic. Back to dwarves and being tough, what is Constitution? "Constitution measures health, stamina, and vital force."What does it mean to be tough? "able to endure hardship or pain" Which would include having a high stamina or "vital force" So, being tough is a result of a high constitution, and having a high constitution is a result of being tough. I'm not getting this wrong, you are just refusing to acknowledge the obvious here.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sorry, I missed that it was supposed to be funny. But...Um... I don't wholeheartedly except Star Trek's version of species? In fact, many people critique Star Treks' version of species on multiple levels for multiple reasons. And considering for a moment that once we get to the stage of speech and foresight, and basically human level intelligence like every species/race in DnD exhibits, it becomes incredibly difficult to talk about some being more or less intelligent without getting into dangerous territory and harmful stereotypes that have perpetuated our societies. Because in trying to explain how we represent a less intelligent culture and people, we invariably end up insulting or diminishing other people. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Seems it isn't so obvious then, because I've been trying to figure out why it is a big deal for a while. It isn't because of culture of the racesIt is likely not genetics of the races (and if it is, that is a bit of a problem) It isn't because of the archetypesIt isn't because of the settings. Every time I dig into something, there is a different reason. In fact, there are so many different reasons that it seems trivial to use those reasons to justify unique characters using Tasha's rules. Orcs have a bonus to strength because of their culture? Well, what if my Gnome Fighter comes from a long and prestigious line of gnome fighters, all constantly training and working and marrying to improve themselves in their quest for [insert plot hook]Dragonborn  have a bonus to strength because of magic dragon blood? Well, what if my Gnome Fighter came upon a wounded dragon, and aided the beast, and in turn it began teaching him the secrets of magic, and allowed him to drink of its powerful blood to strengthen his body. then it mysteriously vanished. Some races are just born strong? Well, what if my Gnome Fighter is a bit of a freak? He was just born stronger than other gnomes, and no one knows why. Maybe it is a throwback to the gnomish relation with dwarves.I could come up with dozens of reasons to justify the change via Tasha's rules, most of them using the same reasoning that other races are using for their numbers. What is blindingly obvious to me is that some people just don't like this rule, and they are never going to like this rule, and they are just going to keep insisting it is a bad rule. I'm just curious if I'm ever going to get a reason that goes beyond "because this is not the way things used to be"</blockquote>

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