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Message: <blockquote data-quote="gfunk" data-source="post: 1141890" data-attributes="member: 1813">Thanks for stopping by and commenting!  We appreciate it.  Our beloved JollyDoc is currently living it up on Florida's white sand beaches until Sunday, so I'll throw in my 2 cents (he'll be back on Sunday). Your question is a very legitimate one and it will take some time to answer. If you compare a straight 7th level cleric to a 7th level Archon, here are the advavtages afforded to the cleric: 1) 7 HD = more hp2) 1 more feat (4 total)3) Higher ranks in skills4) Ability so spontaneously cast Cure spells5) Ability to turn undead6) Heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency The Archon, on the other hand has the following advtantages: 1) Unbalanced stats2) Flight3) Natural Armor4) DR/evil5) Martial weapon proficency6) Electrical resistance7) Trumpet/greatsword combo Clearly, IMO, the Archon is the winner which is why I selected it in the first place<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.  But seriously, let me explain a bit more. Savage Species began the precedent that all HD are created equal.  For example a 3rd level Fighter (with 3 HD plus relevant class features, like bonus feats) is equivalent to a 3 HD giant.  On paper if you compare the two, they seem like a good match: Fighter HD vs. Giant HDFighter BAB vs. Clerical BABd10 HD vs. d8 HDGood Fort save vs. Good Fort save2+Int skill points vs. 2+Int skill points Plus, as I mentioned, the Fighter gets 2 bonus feats.  Clearly, the fighter comes out on top.  However, if we decide to give our 3 HD giants more abilities, like Large size, 10' reach, and high Str and Con then we have to provide him with a Level Adjustment (LA).   Take a full-grown Fire Giant with 14 HD and a LA of +5.  A Fire Giant is therefore equivalent to a 19th level Fighter.  Keep in mind that both PCs will have gear approrpiate to 19th level.  So everything is fine and dandy right? Not quite, b/c some HD are more equal than others.  Consider 1 HD of cleric vs. 1 HD of Outsider (as Pez has):Cleric vs. Outsiderd8 HD vs. d8 HD (ok, good so far)Good Fort/Reflex saves vs. Good Fort/Reflex/Will saves (uh, oh)Cleric BAB vs. Fighter BAB (I think we've got a problem here)2+Int skill points vs. 8+Int skill points (Yep, not balanced at all) However, the balancing factor is this.  A Trumpet Archon has a LA of +8 and 12 HD, bringing the ECL to 20.  Therefore a 20th level Archon is equivalent to a 20th level cleric.  Looking at the end product I think we can see that this is fair exchange.  For giving up raw power (a 20th level Cleric has 20 HD and can cast 8th and 9th level spells) an Archon is given versatility. The problem is not the end product, but the level progression that lead us there.  If you look at the 20 Archon progression, you will notice the following: 1st level = Pretty much on pary with other PCs2nd level - 5th level = Clearly better than a cleric due to advanced spellcasting progression6th level - 11th level = Clearly better than a cleric b/c of advent of numerous special abilites (note that after 8th level though, a cleric is always a more powerful spellcaster than the archon)12th leven and beoynd = The clerics steady advancement in HD and spellcasting gives him far more raw power, leaving the Archon with increased versatility Therefore, on paper, the Archon seems to top most PCs from 1st-11th level.  But has this really played out in our camapaign?  Not really, simply consider the number of times Pez has been smacked down: A. "Life's Bazaar"    1.  Smacked down by Ogre wielding a Falchion (negative hp)    2.  Smacked down by Kazmojen (negative hp)    3.  Smacked down by a Clockwork horror (negative hp) B.  "Flood Season"    1.  Int reduced to 1 by Spawn of Kyuss    2.  Blinded by Glyph of Warding and rendered useless During the same time period, by comparison, the battlerager (Gardrid, Barbarian 7) has not been taken down even once (AFAIK).  Therefore, Pez does not seem to take away the shine from other PCs. Another telling example was when the PCs (level 5 at the time) were taking on the Hecuva Gnoll Ranger/Cleric (CR 9).  Wathros, Gardrid, and Tilly did a fine job taking it down on their own while Pez was huddled in the corner in a fetal position (after being blinded). So ultimately, the Archon does look strong on paper and your concern is a good one.  But so far, he has not had an unbalancing impact on our game.  After a few more levels, I think he should fit in nicely with the others in the power curve.</blockquote>

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