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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8215061" data-attributes="member: 16814">This is valid, but it fails to defeat the argument that Pathfinder is just a hack onto D&amp;D.&nbsp; You could do the same thing with houserules, if you put in the time.&nbsp; I don't agree with this argument, and this your point is valid, even if the difference is slight, but this is not a strong argument in the face of &quot;system doesn't matter.&quot;To help clarify your thinking, the difference between 5e and P2e is really in what play is incentivized in each.&nbsp; I'm not super familiar with P2e, but, from what I've gathered, it does incentivize different things by how it's character build is done, how it instantiated conflict resolution, and in how you earn rewards (xp, loot, etc).&nbsp; This leads to different play, even if, largely, the incentive structures for each are very similar.The reality, in my experience, is that the difference between the crunch and fluff players of a given game are the relative comfort levels towards ignoring the system.&nbsp; Most tables have places where they just outright ignore the system and do something else, especially in games where the resolution engine is unevenly applied.&nbsp; Like in D&amp;D, where the resolution engine for combat is far more details and play facing than the resolution engine for social encounters (which is pretty much &quot;the GM will tell you what happens&quot;).&nbsp; Don't underestimate just how much ignoring the system and then not recognizing this is what happens muddies this topic.&nbsp; Usually, when system is ignored, it's not noticed that you just ignored the system and applied something ad hoc.&nbsp; This is, largely, something that's indoctrinated into players in most games.&nbsp; 5e even officially embraces it!&nbsp; Although, it's not put this bluntly there.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8215061, member: 16814"] This is valid, but it fails to defeat the argument that Pathfinder is just a hack onto D&D. You could do the same thing with houserules, if you put in the time. I don't agree with this argument, and this your point is valid, even if the difference is slight, but this is not a strong argument in the face of "system doesn't matter." To help clarify your thinking, the difference between 5e and P2e is really in what play is incentivized in each. I'm not super familiar with P2e, but, from what I've gathered, it does incentivize different things by how it's character build is done, how it instantiated conflict resolution, and in how you earn rewards (xp, loot, etc). This leads to different play, even if, largely, the incentive structures for each are very similar. The reality, in my experience, is that the difference between the crunch and fluff players of a given game are the relative comfort levels towards ignoring the system. Most tables have places where they just outright ignore the system and do something else, especially in games where the resolution engine is unevenly applied. Like in D&D, where the resolution engine for combat is far more details and play facing than the resolution engine for social encounters (which is pretty much "the GM will tell you what happens"). Don't underestimate just how much ignoring the system and then not recognizing this is what happens muddies this topic. Usually, when system is ignored, it's not noticed that you just ignored the system and applied something ad hoc. This is, largely, something that's indoctrinated into players in most games. 5e even officially embraces it! Although, it's not put this bluntly there. [/QUOTE]

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