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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Jonathan Tweet: Streamlining Third Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="teitan" data-source="post: 7833438" data-attributes="member: 3457"><p>3E for me definitely hit all the notes of how we played anyway aside from using THAC0. We didn't use level limits for example or even class limits. For the first couple years it was great, I ran it just like I did when we played 2e. Even after adjusting a few months into it to the new rules I had no issues. The main issue with the game was that it wasn't DM friendly. It wanted to be, making monster work like characters was a great idea in theory but made things much more complicated in execution because of the moving parts of the system being so intertwined and templates being complicated to ensure you applied them right with levels and bonuses etc. </p><p></p><p>I used to hand blank character sheets to one of my players to make important NPCs because he was a damn good character maker and roleplayer, never using his knowledge to spoil it for the other players. He would smile when he knew what was coming and it was a real time saver but less than ideal. </p><p></p><p>I liked integrating minis into the game but I didn't like that it was so difficult to turn the option off with so many feats and abilities being tied to the use of minis or some sort of counter. It was great that they upped the tactical aspect but we saw that iterative attacks slowed the game to a slog at 8+ levels. As more feats and class options came in... it became a chore.</p><p></p><p>I initially loved prestige classes, I still think they are a great idea on one hand, giving the player control over the development of their character, especially when linked to multiclassing but I really missed being able to randomly drop something on a player. Example, I once had a cleric in 2e. The DM one night ran a session where I was killed and returned as a Revenant. I hadn't planned for that and it turned into an awesome campaign as I became this force of vengeance tearing through the countryside like Ghost Rider or The Crow hunting for my prey and avenging wrongs along the way. In 3e or 4e this was something that needed to be planned out or it could screw up someone's idea for a character. It was basically the same idea as applying a template but easier to do on the fly and handle. 3e kind of eliminated that surprise that could be pulled out by a DM because of expectations, not necessarily rules as written but rules as encouraged. 3e really took a lot away from the DM. </p><p></p><p>Multiclassing was a great idea but also why I think LFQW became even more pronounced because as archaic as it had become, the experience charts in older editions helped keep the wizard from eclipsing the fighter at a noticeable clip. With everyone leveling at the same rate the discrepancy in power between casters and non-casters became more obvious more quickly. </p><p></p><p>Escalating bonuses though with the linear nature of the D20 took the system into superhero land. When you do the math on older editions the D20 represents 5% increments and a -10 AC was the equivalent to a 30 AC in 3e, with the escalating bonuses that could be eclipsed. DCs also became meaningless at high levels for skills. The math didn't have a boundary. That's one of the things I like in 5e. </p><p></p><p>These are all why I never picked up Pathfinder or really played 4e. I think 3e was a GREAT example of D&D and a natural evolution of the game to catch up to the time period but the warts kind of ruined it for me around 2008.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="teitan, post: 7833438, member: 3457"] 3E for me definitely hit all the notes of how we played anyway aside from using THAC0. We didn't use level limits for example or even class limits. For the first couple years it was great, I ran it just like I did when we played 2e. Even after adjusting a few months into it to the new rules I had no issues. The main issue with the game was that it wasn't DM friendly. It wanted to be, making monster work like characters was a great idea in theory but made things much more complicated in execution because of the moving parts of the system being so intertwined and templates being complicated to ensure you applied them right with levels and bonuses etc. I used to hand blank character sheets to one of my players to make important NPCs because he was a damn good character maker and roleplayer, never using his knowledge to spoil it for the other players. He would smile when he knew what was coming and it was a real time saver but less than ideal. I liked integrating minis into the game but I didn't like that it was so difficult to turn the option off with so many feats and abilities being tied to the use of minis or some sort of counter. It was great that they upped the tactical aspect but we saw that iterative attacks slowed the game to a slog at 8+ levels. As more feats and class options came in... it became a chore. I initially loved prestige classes, I still think they are a great idea on one hand, giving the player control over the development of their character, especially when linked to multiclassing but I really missed being able to randomly drop something on a player. Example, I once had a cleric in 2e. The DM one night ran a session where I was killed and returned as a Revenant. I hadn't planned for that and it turned into an awesome campaign as I became this force of vengeance tearing through the countryside like Ghost Rider or The Crow hunting for my prey and avenging wrongs along the way. In 3e or 4e this was something that needed to be planned out or it could screw up someone's idea for a character. It was basically the same idea as applying a template but easier to do on the fly and handle. 3e kind of eliminated that surprise that could be pulled out by a DM because of expectations, not necessarily rules as written but rules as encouraged. 3e really took a lot away from the DM. Multiclassing was a great idea but also why I think LFQW became even more pronounced because as archaic as it had become, the experience charts in older editions helped keep the wizard from eclipsing the fighter at a noticeable clip. With everyone leveling at the same rate the discrepancy in power between casters and non-casters became more obvious more quickly. Escalating bonuses though with the linear nature of the D20 took the system into superhero land. When you do the math on older editions the D20 represents 5% increments and a -10 AC was the equivalent to a 30 AC in 3e, with the escalating bonuses that could be eclipsed. DCs also became meaningless at high levels for skills. The math didn't have a boundary. That's one of the things I like in 5e. These are all why I never picked up Pathfinder or really played 4e. I think 3e was a GREAT example of D&D and a natural evolution of the game to catch up to the time period but the warts kind of ruined it for me around 2008. [/QUOTE]
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