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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Jonathan Tweet: Streamlining Third Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7834038" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>OK, so at 11th level, a fighter, once between short rests, attacking 6 times instead of three gets a flag for delay of game, but, at 5th, a wizard, forcing saving throws from multiple creatures with a fireball, rolling 8 dice for damage and apportioning full or half according to the results, not an issue? (and it's not like fireball is that complicated a spell to resolve, as spells go, just potentially more to it than the fighter's best round at double the level).</p><p></p><p>3e could slow to a crawl - or be over in a flash, depending on who at the table was optimizing, and for what.</p><p>There isn't really a similar reason in 4e. You don't get a lot more attacks as you level. At first, a Wizard might sleep a large area and attack multiple opponents - at 7th the fighter might attack over a similar area with C&GI (and that's his high point, for the next two tiers). The increase in complexity as you level in 4e is fair through heroic Tier, going from 1 encounter & daily each to 3, but modest thereafter 4 by the end of Paragon, and just swapping out through Epic. 4e arguably started with more choices (at least for the fighter, at no point does any 4e character out-decision-paralyze a 2/3rds-the-level-equivalent 5e full caster) and lies entirely outside some fans' sweet spots, but it doesn't have a range of early or later levels that break down relative to mid-high Herioc.</p><p></p><p>There /was/ a sort of speedbump effect I used to notice at Paragon, though. Early in 4e (and it's not like there was a late in 4e), power designs eschewed immediate actions until Paragon, so, at 11th, you'd pick up a new Paragon power, that might just be an interrupt, and two or three new features to remember - and, subsequent powers you retrained or items you picked up might also involve interrupts or other off-turn actions, /and/ monsters got more off-turn actions, as well.</p><p>A group new to the edition, having finished up heroic for the first time, could struggle with that for a level or two. </p><p>Subsequent supplements put a lot more off-turn actions in the Heroic Tier.</p><p></p><p>Yeah, not s'much LFQW in 13A, though the fighter is pretty sad for other reasons, the structure is not entirely dissimilar to 4e, the wizard doesn't get dozens of spells to choose from...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7834038, member: 996"] OK, so at 11th level, a fighter, once between short rests, attacking 6 times instead of three gets a flag for delay of game, but, at 5th, a wizard, forcing saving throws from multiple creatures with a fireball, rolling 8 dice for damage and apportioning full or half according to the results, not an issue? (and it's not like fireball is that complicated a spell to resolve, as spells go, just potentially more to it than the fighter's best round at double the level). 3e could slow to a crawl - or be over in a flash, depending on who at the table was optimizing, and for what. There isn't really a similar reason in 4e. You don't get a lot more attacks as you level. At first, a Wizard might sleep a large area and attack multiple opponents - at 7th the fighter might attack over a similar area with C&GI (and that's his high point, for the next two tiers). The increase in complexity as you level in 4e is fair through heroic Tier, going from 1 encounter & daily each to 3, but modest thereafter 4 by the end of Paragon, and just swapping out through Epic. 4e arguably started with more choices (at least for the fighter, at no point does any 4e character out-decision-paralyze a 2/3rds-the-level-equivalent 5e full caster) and lies entirely outside some fans' sweet spots, but it doesn't have a range of early or later levels that break down relative to mid-high Herioc. There /was/ a sort of speedbump effect I used to notice at Paragon, though. Early in 4e (and it's not like there was a late in 4e), power designs eschewed immediate actions until Paragon, so, at 11th, you'd pick up a new Paragon power, that might just be an interrupt, and two or three new features to remember - and, subsequent powers you retrained or items you picked up might also involve interrupts or other off-turn actions, /and/ monsters got more off-turn actions, as well. A group new to the edition, having finished up heroic for the first time, could struggle with that for a level or two. Subsequent supplements put a lot more off-turn actions in the Heroic Tier. Yeah, not s'much LFQW in 13A, though the fighter is pretty sad for other reasons, the structure is not entirely dissimilar to 4e, the wizard doesn't get dozens of spells to choose from... [/QUOTE]
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