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<blockquote data-quote="Alzrius" data-source="post: 7834540" data-attributes="member: 8461"><p>This is true, though to be fair I think it was an artifact of changing the initiative rules as much as any attempt to deliberately changing how casting times worked. Nevertheless, as you noted, the result was that spellcasters virtually always (save only for a few spells that had 1-round or longer casting times) were able to finish their spells on their action, before anyone else had a chance to interrupt them, unless by using a readied action or hoping that the caster forgot to cast defensively and so provoked an AoO (though, to be fair, failing a check to cast defensively meant that you lost the spell).</p><p></p><p>But that wasn't the only way that spellcaster weaknesses were reduced in 3E compared to previous editions.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Previously, spellcasters who were interrupted during spellcasting (not just by damage, but by virtually anything distracting) automatically failed to cast their spell. There were no "concentration checks."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spells took a long time to prepare: 10 minutes per spell level for each and every spell, rather than being able to prepare everything in just one hour. A high-level wizard who used up most of their spells during the course of an adventure might need several days to replenish them all!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Divine spellcasters didn't get to pick what (higher-level) spells they received; they <em>requested</em> them from their deity. What they got might not be what they asked for, though this was typically done to make sure they'd be better prepared for the challenges ahead, as well as making sure that they didn't use magic that strayed from their religious tenets.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizards could only learn so many spells of each level, contingent on their Intelligence. This was a <em>major</em> limitation to a wizard's power, since it meant that they could only potentially know so many spells, regardless of what was in their spellbook. The numbers fluctuated over time (even within an edition) and this rule waffled between being set and being optional, but it was the hardest limit on what arcane spellcasters could do.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The degree to which material components for spells were assumed was less. While no one expected you to keep track of how much bat guano you had, there weren't "spell component pouches" that you could buy. If you didn't have the right tuning fork for where you wanted to go with <em>plane shift</em>, then you weren't going anywhere.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The cost for powerful spells was greater, in terms of using up years of your life. Unlike XP, those weren't really something you could get back over time (though this tended to favor demihumans, and was another reason, I think, why they were locked out of the higher spellcasting class levels most of the time). Magic items that restored youth were few and far between, and tended to have inherent risks in using them.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Other spells had <em>numerous</em> drawbacks built into them that made their use less casual. Polymorph spells required you to make a system shock check, for example, where a failure meant death. Likewise, if you botched your familiarity roll with a <em>teleport</em> spell, and ended up inside a solid object, then you didn't take some modest damage as you were shunted into the nearest available space. You died instantly.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Of course, being brought back to life required you to make a resurrection survival roll, where failure meant that you couldn't be brought back ever. You could also be brought back no more often than your Constitution score.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic item creation wasn't standardized. While the ability to do that was automatically gained with level, most items not only required you to have the requisite <em>enchant an item</em> and <em>permanency</em> spells (see above about limited spells per level) or otherwise permanently lose a point of Constitution upon completion. Likewise, all such items required special components whose provenance was up to the GM. You couldn't just craft whatever items you wanted if you had enough gold pieces.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">As noted before, saving throws were determined by your target. While you might be able to apply a (small) penalty to their saves, a higher-level character would have just as easy a time making their save against a 1st-level spell as a 9th-level one.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizards didn't automatically gain new spells as they leveled up. You had to find <em>all</em> of the new spells you received after 1st level in the course of play, whereas in 3rd Edition they gained a minimum of two new spells with every new level of wizard gained.</li> </ul><p>Those are just off the top of my head, but they represent ways in which spellcasters gained power in 3E simply because of the things which had traditionally kept them in check were removed, presumably because they weren't considered to be fun. That's understandable, but judging from how big of a complaint "LFQW" became, the consequences of removing those limits in the name of fun wasn't fully realized.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Alzrius, post: 7834540, member: 8461"] This is true, though to be fair I think it was an artifact of changing the initiative rules as much as any attempt to deliberately changing how casting times worked. Nevertheless, as you noted, the result was that spellcasters virtually always (save only for a few spells that had 1-round or longer casting times) were able to finish their spells on their action, before anyone else had a chance to interrupt them, unless by using a readied action or hoping that the caster forgot to cast defensively and so provoked an AoO (though, to be fair, failing a check to cast defensively meant that you lost the spell). But that wasn't the only way that spellcaster weaknesses were reduced in 3E compared to previous editions. [LIST] [*]Previously, spellcasters who were interrupted during spellcasting (not just by damage, but by virtually anything distracting) automatically failed to cast their spell. There were no "concentration checks." [*]Spells took a long time to prepare: 10 minutes per spell level for each and every spell, rather than being able to prepare everything in just one hour. A high-level wizard who used up most of their spells during the course of an adventure might need several days to replenish them all! [*]Divine spellcasters didn't get to pick what (higher-level) spells they received; they [I]requested[/I] them from their deity. What they got might not be what they asked for, though this was typically done to make sure they'd be better prepared for the challenges ahead, as well as making sure that they didn't use magic that strayed from their religious tenets. [*]Wizards could only learn so many spells of each level, contingent on their Intelligence. This was a [I]major[/I] limitation to a wizard's power, since it meant that they could only potentially know so many spells, regardless of what was in their spellbook. The numbers fluctuated over time (even within an edition) and this rule waffled between being set and being optional, but it was the hardest limit on what arcane spellcasters could do. [*]The degree to which material components for spells were assumed was less. While no one expected you to keep track of how much bat guano you had, there weren't "spell component pouches" that you could buy. If you didn't have the right tuning fork for where you wanted to go with [I]plane shift[/I], then you weren't going anywhere. [*]The cost for powerful spells was greater, in terms of using up years of your life. Unlike XP, those weren't really something you could get back over time (though this tended to favor demihumans, and was another reason, I think, why they were locked out of the higher spellcasting class levels most of the time). Magic items that restored youth were few and far between, and tended to have inherent risks in using them. [*]Other spells had [I]numerous[/I] drawbacks built into them that made their use less casual. Polymorph spells required you to make a system shock check, for example, where a failure meant death. Likewise, if you botched your familiarity roll with a [I]teleport[/I] spell, and ended up inside a solid object, then you didn't take some modest damage as you were shunted into the nearest available space. You died instantly. [*]Of course, being brought back to life required you to make a resurrection survival roll, where failure meant that you couldn't be brought back ever. You could also be brought back no more often than your Constitution score. [*]Magic item creation wasn't standardized. While the ability to do that was automatically gained with level, most items not only required you to have the requisite [I]enchant an item[/I] and [I]permanency[/I] spells (see above about limited spells per level) or otherwise permanently lose a point of Constitution upon completion. Likewise, all such items required special components whose provenance was up to the GM. You couldn't just craft whatever items you wanted if you had enough gold pieces. [*]As noted before, saving throws were determined by your target. While you might be able to apply a (small) penalty to their saves, a higher-level character would have just as easy a time making their save against a 1st-level spell as a 9th-level one. [*]Wizards didn't automatically gain new spells as they leveled up. You had to find [I]all[/I] of the new spells you received after 1st level in the course of play, whereas in 3rd Edition they gained a minimum of two new spells with every new level of wizard gained. [/LIST] Those are just off the top of my head, but they represent ways in which spellcasters gained power in 3E simply because of the things which had traditionally kept them in check were removed, presumably because they weren't considered to be fun. That's understandable, but judging from how big of a complaint "LFQW" became, the consequences of removing those limits in the name of fun wasn't fully realized. [/QUOTE]
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