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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7055576" data-attributes="member: 29398">Oddly enough, I think I more or less agree with almost every point you make here but still find myself disagreeing with your overall position.  Neat trick. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />OK, I'm with you so far.Still with you to here, particularly this last bit.Except that's exactly what we're being presented with here: games where the players can and do - if not outright make these seterminations, at least force a roll for them.The artifact-in-the-desert example counts as part of the premise, at least to me.  They certainly could have ignored it and moved on (and believe me, the whole game would have taken some much different directions if they had!) but it was always there to be found; and the dig site was always in the wrong place.OK, though you're on a slippery slope here as the DM also determines the existing factors, as is her right.Again, agreed.  Both (2) and (3) are simply a matter of hitting the curveball; (2) just hits it harder.I suggest both (2) and (3) contain elements of the players railroading the DM, particularly if the DM then ends up running an adventure or scenario she has no interest in or desire to run.  And that's bad for two reasons: 1) the DM is there to have fun too, and 2) if the DM isn't enjoying what she's doing it's inevitably going to show through, potentially risking dragging the players' enjoyment down with her.Lan-"while I've by the standards here probably been doing it wrong for 30+ years, I fully intend to go on doing it wrong for 30+ more"-efan</blockquote>

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