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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7056265" data-attributes="member: 6696971">My wish in these kinds of threads is that we could focus on specific moments of play and hone in on analyzing "what is going on under the hood" and the implications therein rather than working broadly from the macro conception (railroad) backwards to those important moments of play (of applied, or not, GM Force).  I hate how so often threads devolve into that.  We end up functionally analyzing nothing (collectively that is) and thus gain no greater understanding.I also wish I could locate my GMing principles thread that I did for Dungeon World, 4e, 5e, and B/X.  I think they may have been lost to the October 6th scrub from last year (what a pity).  I believe  [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] and  [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] were both involved in that thread.  They would be helpful here.Just a couple of things:1)  I know a lot of folks assume my GMing is exclusively Indie/"Story Now"/Narrativist (whatever you want to call it - regardless, you're talking (a) below) due to the majority of my posts.  However, that is just a product of what I'm talking about at that moment (which just so happens to be a lot of (a) on these boards).  I run several different (significantly divergent) styles of games depending on what D&D system I'm running:a)  My Dungeon World, Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy, 4e, Strike(!), Torchbearer, and Mouse Guard all have considerable overlap.  My 13th Age has some overlap here too.  Tightly principled and codified games with resolution mechanics and feedback loops that are well-integrated.  The sum total means that action snowballs and story emerges just by playing the game.b)  My B/X and Torchbearer have considerable overlap.  Discrete play phases, Keyed Dungeons and tight/coherent procedures move you through character progression (which is a different in both games, but similar in the zoomed-out view).c)  My AD&D2e and 5e (and 13th Age and 3.x have some with 5e but neither with each other) games have a lot of overlap.  Hexcrawl, adventuring-day-dynamics, PCs built around that paradigm, "subvert/scrub the rules as you see fit" ethos, and loose resolution mechanics that expect the GM to be heavily involved in all facets of adjudication.  This paradigm expects/mandates (though doesn't really require it in 5e like it does in AD&D2e) GM Force/Illusionism to be deployed and it very much "plays nice" with all those techniques.  The zoomed-out goal of play is to "have fun" with a "compelling story".  It is a micro-principle-lite game (by design) because the GM is expected to sub their own play principles/agenda as they see fit.  Of note, when I stand-in for the GM of the 5e game that I run, I don't use GM Force or Illusionism, so I know that 5e doesn't require it (it just plays very nice with it).  He definitely does (liberally), however, as I've watched him run the game on a few occasions (and have experience with him in the past).  As far as I can tell, he has never learned to run a game without covertly applying GM Force as he chooses.  He considers it to be "the" fundamental GMing technique.d)  My AD&D1e (with heavy use of WSG) and 5e games have a lot of overlap and both share a lot with my 3.x games (except for LFQW is so bloody out of control in the latter).  Granular hex-crawl and wilderness-exploration-heavy. [MENTION=6846794]Gardens & Goblins[/MENTION] , is your position in the quoted post that "system doesn't matter."  It looks that way with what you've said and specifically your assertion that "We get a bunch of rules which we're given free license to use, modify and flat out ignore."  While that is an orthodox principle in games like White Wolf's supernatural  ones in the 90s, AD&D2e, and 5e, that isn't remotely a standard, TTRPG-spanning principle across all games.  I know that is a big cultural zeitgeist that came out of that White Wolf/AD&D2e era, but that doesn't rubber stamp it as applying across all games.  Most games don't need it, and several actively push against it or overtly direct you not to. [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] , given what you've written in this thread (and the reply above), I don't think you have a good handle on:* the sum-total of GM overhead (prep, improv/adjudication, conflict-framing, and creativity requirements) in a game like Dungeon World versus a game like B/X (or 5e).* the nuance of GM overhead (prep, improv/adjudication, conflict-framing, and creativity requirements) in a game like Dungeon World versus a game like B/X (or 5e).Upthread I wrote out <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?531049-Judgement-calls-vs-quot-railroading-quot&p=7054548&viewfull=1#post7054548" target="_blank">the fictional output from a play excerpt from Dungeon World</a>.  I followed that up with <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?531049-Judgement-calls-vs-quot-railroading-quot&p=7054549&viewfull=1#post7054549" target="_blank">revealing the mechanization of that excerpt in Dungeon World</a>.  I have now just <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?531049-Judgement-calls-vs-quot-railroading-quot&p=7054550&viewfull=1#post7054550" target="_blank">transliterated that over to reveal how that might be mechanized in B/X</a>.  Later I'll do 5e (which should be trivially done), when I have the spare time.Do you think you could look those over and comment or ask questions to clarify.  I would hope (if I've done my job...perhaps I haven't done it well enough though) the sum-total and nuance of GM overhead between DW and B/X would be much more clear to you.Obviously anyone else can do the same if they'd like.  I feel that this level of focus is much more helpful than just broad <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />-for-tat on railroading (and for whatever reason folks aren't engaging with  [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] 's myriad of play examples...maybe its the format of them, I have no idea why...so maybe how I've formatted things will help).</blockquote>

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